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Nazi Collaborators or Victims?

With a reference to ‘Polish death camps,’ Barack Obama stumbled into a debate about World War II

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People walk past the ruins of the crematorium at Auschwitz-Birkenau, a former Nazi death camp in Poland, on Jan. 27, 2011. (Janek Skarzynski/AFP/Getty Images)
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During Tuesday’s awards ceremony for this year’s recipients of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, President Barack Obama honored Polish resistance hero Jan Karski as a man who was “smuggled into the Warsaw Ghetto and a Polish death camp to see for himself” the savagery of Nazi anti-Semitism. What appeared to most American political observers a minor gaffe—the infelicitous word choice of a White House speechwriter—quickly metastasized into a diplomatic incident between the United States and Poland.

As was quickly pointed out by angry Poles, the death factories were built on German-occupied Polish soil by Germans. They didn’t employ Polish nationals—they housed them. The media in Warsaw blew a gasket, providing nonstop coverage of Obama’s clumsy phrasing. The centrist broadsheet Rzeczpospolita blanketed its homepage with the story; Poland’s Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski took to Twitter to demand an apology; and Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk issued a pungent press release, claiming the mistake “touched all Poles” and accusing the Obama Administration of “bad intentions.”

At first blush, Poland’s hyperventilating response and accusation of the White House’s “bad intentions” seems disproportionate. While Warsaw is still smarting from Obama’s abandonment of the Bush Administration’s plan to install a missile shield in Poland, it is unclear why the administration would intend to shift culpability for the Holocaust from Germany to Germany’s victims. (And it turns out the “Polish camp” mistake is depressingly common. The website of Poland’s embassy in Washington even offers a how-to-guide for avoiding the locution and claims to have “intervened” with American media organizations hundreds of times in recent years: In 2010, there were 103 such interventions compared to 23 this year.)

But this debate is about something much deeper than Obama’s misstatement. Since the fall of Soviet communism, the framing of recent Polish history, finally liberated from the pedagogical dictates of an occupying government, which allowed a single, tendentious narrative of World War II, is a tender subject—one that frequently provokes fierce debate in the Polish media. But the desire to establish a more accurate history, centered on Poland’s role as victims of both Nazism and communism, has given succor to nationalists who want to replace one rigid myth—that Germany’s occupation of Poland was a struggle between fascism and communism—with another: a black-and-white morality tale starring heroic Poles who acted righteously under Nazi domination.

There’s abundant evidence that this nationalistic myth is gaining traction. In 2006, Poland passed a law criminalizing the “slandering of the Polish nation by accusing it of participating in communist or Nazi crimes.” In 2007, when the Hollywood film Defiance, starring Daniel Craig as a Jewish partisan fighting the German occupation of Poland, was released, critics in Warsaw harrumphed that Hollywood avoided showing brave and heroic Polish partisans. (Craig’s character, based on the partisan Tuvia Bielski, was a Polish Jew.) The Guardian reported that the film was “booed at cinemas across the country and banned from others because of a local perception that it is a rewriting of history and anti-Polish.” In other words, the film didn’t focus enough on non-Jewish suffering.

More disturbingly, the Polish-American historian Jan T. Gross’ 2001 book Neighbors, which documented a brutal 1940 pogrom of Jews in the town of Jedwabne, provoked a firestorm of criticism. According to Gross, 1,600 of “Jedwabne’s Jews were clubbed, drowned, gutted, and burned not by faceless Nazis, but by people whose features and names they knew well: their former schoolmates and those who sold them food, bought their milk, and chatted with them in the street.” Such revelations, which offered a slight challenge to the narrative of Polish resistance, were met with fierce hostility. The great hero of anti-Soviet resistance, former President Lech Walesa, dismissed Gross as a “mediocre writer” and a “Jew who tries to make money.”

Gross would later write another controversial book, Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland After Auschwitz, excavating memories of postwar hatred and violence against the country’s few remaining Jews, most notably the barbaric 1946 mass killing in the town of Kielce (which some historians believe was instigated by Soviet occupation authorities). In response, Polish prosecutors threatened to prosecute Gross for “slandering the Polish nation.” Because of the country’s impressive role in assisting its Jewish citizens during the Final Solution, Polish historian Jakub Kloc-Konkolowicz wrote that many Poles “saw—and continue to see—themselves exclusively in the role of war victims.”

Other scholars have shined the light on the disturbing wartime practice of szmalcownicy—Poles extorting money from Jews in exchange for protection from the Nazis—a topic largely downplayed by nationalist historians. During the Gross controversy, Polish academic Israel Gutman, editor of the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust and survivor of Auschwitz, wrote that “Although denouncers came forth in most Nazi-occupied countries, only in Poland did bands of thugs and zealots make Jew-hunting a ‘profession.’ ” Szmalcownicy, though, was condemned by Polish resistance organizations, who judged it a crime punishable by death.

It should be noted without equivocation that Poland’s Holocaust record, while far from perfect, is better than most countries under Nazi occupation. Unlike most of Germany’s European colonies, Poland produced no native SS division. Those who served with the German army were primarily Volksdeutsch (Polish citizens of German extraction), and, unlike citizens of other countries under occupation, no Poles eagerly worked as death camp guards.

But wartime Poland was a strange case of deeply rooted, historical anti-Semitism coexisting with anti-Nazi resistance. In 1942, the celebrated Catholic writer and resistance figure Zofia Kossak-Szczucka appealed for outside assistance on behalf of the Jews languishing and dying within the Warsaw Ghetto. But, lest it be seen as a philo-Semitic gesture rather than an act of Catholic decency, she added: “Our feelings toward the Jews haven’t changed. We still consider them the political, economic and ideological enemies of Poland.” The idea that Polish Jews were an alien political body, disproportionately active in pro-Soviet politics and therefore an obvious target for partisans, persists among many contemporary Polish historians.

It is true, as many of Obama’s Polish detractors claim, that while the United States and Great Britain were negligent in assisting Europe’s besieged Jews—one need only look at the fate of the Jewish refugees aboard the MS St. Louis—many Poles bravely risked execution to help their Jewish neighbors. The impressive number of Polish righteous gentiles honored at Yad Vashem is testament to that fact.

But this controversy isn’t about a lazy speechwriter or the United States’ shameful record in rescuing Jews; it’s about controlling the story of Poland’s past. It is undeniably true that the “Polish nation” was not complicit in the Holocaust, that the country fiercely resisted invasion and occupation, that Poland was uninvolved in the industrialized killing of Jews, and that Poles often displayed tremendous moral courage in hiding Jewish fellow citizens. But in upending one myth, let’s not consecrate another. As the Jedwabne pogrom shows, victims can also be perpetrators.

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Excellent and extremely balanced piece. 

But the Jedwabne pogrom was only one pogrom in a long history of Polish pogroms. I find it disturbing that the Polish people often practice historical revisionism in pretending that they have been a friend to the Jews when the truth is that Poles have been killing and stealing from Jews for hundreds of years – they did so long before the rise of the Nazis and they did so after the Nazis were defeated.

    polgirl says:

    Jews came  to Poland in large numbers since the 13th century, when they were expelled by England, until the start of World War Two when they were fleeing Germany .  You are judging seven centuries of Jewish life in Poland on the basis of six years of German occupation (when both groups were targeted).

      ste88ven says:

      Seven centuries of antisemitic hell 

        Were you there?

          Actually, unlike YOU and the other moron poster defending Poles, I was born and lived on that territory and among many Poles. Have a feeling that YOU have not lived around Jews, your naive attempts to post obvious LIES are truly bothersome, but coming from seemingly a communist mind I am not surprised. 

          I lived in Poland for 11 years and am Jewish.  I now live in NYC, so yes, I live around many many Jews.

          What about my posts makes me communist?

          Your pro Hussein stance.

           Oh, my bad. I thought for a second you are a little more than a simple partisan hack. My apologies:>

           Uh-huh, anyone defending those dumb Pollacks HAS to be a moron communist nazi jew hater. And yeah, using capitals increases the point I am making by %13 so I might as well use it throughout the post.
           You know who else lived on that territory? Those damn Pollacks you seem to dislike so much. Those damn Pollacks seem to remember what happened fairly well…

          alezwasidioci says:

           and how you feel now: you damn not knowing anything about poland idot american?? fuck off our country!!

          oaklandj says:

          In your anger, you insulted a Pole who was making a point using hyperbole. See what happens?

          I’m pretty sure level1ninja was being sarcastic.

          I’m pretty sure level1ninja was being sarcastic.

          POLAK SZMATY says:

          thOSE damn Pollacks could let nazis kill all jews and nowadays we wouldnt have such a discussion. CONGRATS JEWS u make ur self being hated for saying what comftble whith u. IM A NAZI NOW

          alezwasidioci says:

           yeah for sure you lived here you damn idiot. if you lived in poland you would never tell such things!! and better stop insulting us because now i hate americans more than ever beacuse of you moron

          oaklandj says:

          Nie mozna zlem zla naprawic. Now Evelina and I, both Jews who have lived in Poland, are insulted, too.

        Why did Jews flee in troves from all over Europe and settle in Poland if it was “hell”?  They obviously made a choice to live in Poland.  Are you insulting their intelligence?

          ste88ven says:

          They were invited by the king, numnuts!

          oaklandj says:

          So Jews left the Jewish-loving parts of Europe and moved to Jewish-hating Poland because the Polish king invited them?

          ste88ven says:

          There are no Jewish loving parts of Europe. The Church saw to that..

           Sooo… what you are saying is… the jews chose the least hating part of Europe?:>:>

           Sooo… what you are saying is… the jews chose the least hating part of Europe?:>:>

          RichardBlazer says:

          EXACTLY!

          Jews RAN IN DROVES to that “Anti-Semitic” Poland for ONE THOUSAND YEARS!!

          Jews CHOSE FREELY to live in POLAND for ONE THOUSAND YEARS!!

          If Poland was as “anti-semitic” as these Jewish Supremacists say….then Jews have to be the BIGGEST IDIOTS in the World to CHOOSE to live in “horrible anti-semitic Poland”!!!

          WHAT KIND OF IDIOTS CHOOSE to live in a country that they complain hates them?? Answer: The JEWS!!!

        polgirl says:

        Your comments are completely devoid of insight or intelligence, and so unworthy of civil discourse, I will no longer dignify them with a response. 

      Stop posting LIES. Poles used Jews as managers of the Ukrainian lands instilling in Ukrainians same hatred towards Jews Poles have hed for centuries. Do you even know why Ukrainians asked Russian Tsar for protection and gave up their sovereignty in exchange? 

      Learn history, not the revisionist history you trying to pass here, but TRY HISTORY of Poles and Jews. Poles HATE JEWS. WITH PASSION.

      And yes, those concentration camps were POLISH concentration camps. Even hear of concentration camps in Belorus? Ukraine? Latvia? Why is it they were mostly ion Polish lands? 

         Rid-Dick . Are you old, lonely man who got crappy life ? And nobody cares for you. It looks that way.

        Bogdan51 says:

        Riddick you are MAD!

        stannadel says:

         Didn’t you ever hear of the death camp by Minsk?  There were dozens of concentration camps in Belarus and the Ukraine.  More Jews were killed by the Nazis in the occupied USSR than in the death camps in Poland–try reading Timothy Snyder’s book Bloodlands.  Polish Antisemitism is real, but Poland was a also a refuge for Jews for centuries and it was the Ukrainians and the Balts who staffed the camps for the Nazis, not the Poles.  Then there is Steve Paulsson’s book The Secret City on how 25,000 Jews hid and survived in Warsaw–with the help of tens of thousands of Poles.  The history here is very complicated and the Poles as a whole can’t be cast as either heroes or perpetrators–some were the one, some the other, and most just tried to survive.

         Now that is a nice piece of revisionism here. Asking Tsar for protection was like asking a mugger not to rob you. I think the word you are missing in your sentence there is: voluntarily. Because let me assure you, it was done at the end of a stick.
        And yeah, them bad bad poles; and its ok: use the CAPITALS. They make your point oh so valid.
        Hmm, what could possibly Hitler want to achieve by building concentration camps away from prying eyes? Hmmmm…. think Riddick, it is not as hard as you may.. tsk tsk.. think

        polgirl says:

        Not, lies, but apparently you cannot accept the truth.

        alezwasidioci says:

         and how to you know we hate them? are you pole?? NO. my best friend is jew, i got nothing to jews, my neighbours are jews!!

          POLAK SZMATY says:

          Im Polish and after reading some post i realy realy hate jews same as arabs. If i got my chance to punish and get rid of this scum i will. My granparents were helping them risking their own lives and thats how they say thank. I wish i be back these days and actually try to get every single jew got killed not in the gas chambers but mote suffer .

        polgirl says:

         Oh, so now the Poles, your scapegoats, are to blame for Ukrainian anti-semitism.  The Ukrainians need no help in that department.  I suppose that Jewish collaboration with the Germans is also rooted in “Polish anti-semitism”. 

        polgirl says:

         Oh, so now the Poles, your scapegoats, are to blame for Ukrainian anti-semitism.  The Ukrainians need no help in that department.  I suppose that Jewish collaboration with the Germans is also rooted in “Polish anti-semitism”. 

      Polgirl Please reread my comment. I am saying there were pogroms carried out by Poles against Jews for hundreds of years – well before the rise of the Nazi and continuing after the Nazis were defeated. I am not looking at the history of antisemitism in Poland on the basis of six years, I am looking at it from hundreds of years ago to today.

        polgirl says:

        Boudicca, yours is the only civil comment I have received, and it deserves a response in kind.  Poland had, for the most part,  a history of tolerance towards its minorities (unlike the empires from which Jews were expelled) , which is why so many Jews arrived there in the first place throughout the centuries.  For the most part,  peaceful co-existence largely continued while Poland was a sovereign nation until its partition beginning in 1792 by Russia, Prussia and Austria and Poland’s  own laws no longer applied.  Unfortunately, judging by this website,  Jews are being imbued with a deep aversion to Poland and  I doubt that anything will change your mind.

          oaklandj says:

          You are judging based on maybe 5 commenters. I will remind you that Evelina and I are both Jewish.

          Well I’m also originally from Poland and for most of my life didn’t know I was a Jew, so I’m kind of a different story.

          And now as a Polish-Jewish-American, I seem to often find myself caught in the middle, forced to choose who to defend… But because I’m also trained as a historian, I like to think I present the facts and the truth.  Don’t get me wrong, there are things that have happened in Poland at the hands of Poles that make me sick, and I’m glad that my future children will not be forced to live in that place and time (and I’ll be able to actually tell them they’re Jewish).  But, whenever someone gets on their judgmental high horse and generalizes and accuses Poles of being ALL bad, I feel the need to defend the honor of the many righteous ones.

          oaklandj says:

          You’re still Jewish. There are lots of paths to Judaism; yours is no less a valid one than anyone else’s. I didn’t know you were from Poland originally – the spelling of your first name isn’t standard Polish (as you obviously know).

          I don’t think anyone is arguing that there hasn’t been a very prominent strain of anti-Semitism in Poland for centuries, and that it hasn’t manifested in terrible, violent ways. I, like you, dislike the generalization that each and every Pole is anti-Semitic; that discounts my actual experience with Polish people today. There are lots of anti-Semitic Poles, and lots that like/love Jews. That was true then, and that was true now. Why people struggle with nuance is beyond me.

          polgirl says:

          Thank you, I appreciate the irony that Jews from Poland may have a different perspective than some of the posters who have never been there.

        Yes, throughout Polish history there were always some segments of society who disliked Jews, and they were sometimes successful in instigating pogroms; though my impression from reading the history is that a bigger chunk of this violence was done by ethnic Ukrainians as reprisals toward both Polish Catholics and Polish Jews who colonized the Ukraine, so perhaps you are accidentally classifying these as Polish pogroms carried out by Poles because they were on Polish-owned lands.

        Anyway, most of the Polish anti-Semites have always been uneducated, disenfranchised peasants and serfs who for most of Polish history had less freedoms and opportunities than Polish Jews.  (Even the reasoning behind some restrictive anti-Jewish policies of the 1930’s like university quotas was that it was affirmative action for the poor Catholics from the countryside, who were seen to have been born to less privilege than the Jewish city-dwellers.)

        But overall, Jews for many centuries had been much safer in Poland than in the rest of Europe.  Even if some of the public didn’t like them, the kings and nobility instituted a just system of law that protected them.  They didn’t even have to live among the lowlifes that wished them ill – they were free to settle in their own towns and communities within Polish borders, under their own autonomous legal systems run by their rabbis.

        Saying that there has always been anti-Semitism in Poland is similar to saying that there has always been racism in America – it’s a true and unfortunate statement, and it reflects acts of violence and misery, but it doesn’t mean that there haven’t been many, many happy and successful Jews in Poland and blacks in America.  And as a matter of fact, the Polish government or society as a whole never condoned brutal slavery of Jews or classifying them as 3/5 of a person the way early America treated black people.

        Yes, throughout Polish history there were always some segments of society who disliked Jews, and they were sometimes successful in instigating pogroms; though my impression from reading the history is that a bigger chunk of this violence was done by ethnic Ukrainians as reprisals toward both Polish Catholics and Polish Jews who colonized the Ukraine, so perhaps you are accidentally classifying these as Polish pogroms carried out by Poles because they were on Polish-owned lands.

        Anyway, most of the Polish anti-Semites have always been uneducated, disenfranchised peasants and serfs who for most of Polish history had less freedoms and opportunities than Polish Jews.  (Even the reasoning behind some restrictive anti-Jewish policies of the 1930’s like university quotas was that it was affirmative action for the poor Catholics from the countryside, who were seen to have been born to less privilege than the Jewish city-dwellers.)

        But overall, Jews for many centuries had been much safer in Poland than in the rest of Europe.  Even if some of the public didn’t like them, the kings and nobility instituted a just system of law that protected them.  They didn’t even have to live among the lowlifes that wished them ill – they were free to settle in their own towns and communities within Polish borders, under their own autonomous legal systems run by their rabbis.

        Saying that there has always been anti-Semitism in Poland is similar to saying that there has always been racism in America – it’s a true and unfortunate statement, and it reflects acts of violence and misery, but it doesn’t mean that there haven’t been many, many happy and successful Jews in Poland and blacks in America.  And as a matter of fact, the Polish government or society as a whole never condoned brutal slavery of Jews or classifying them as 3/5 of a person the way early America treated black people.

     Huh? Well documented? Balanced? I am sometimes quite unsure whether we are using the same language. I would say Gross is fair and balanced the same way Fox news are. Heavily slanted towards one side.
     Wow… them Polish people were killing jews since the beginning of time you say, wern’t they?. Lordy lordy lordy… quick, we must kill all those Polish barbarians before they rise  and start a world war again … oh wait… those were Gemans…
    Sigh, retards

      Odd comment Level1ninja, I am not sure I get the conversational style you were going for. Also not sure how you could read my comment and think that I would advocate killing Polish people….   

      There were pogroms carried out by Polish people against Jews for centuries. That is a fact.  There were also pogroms in other parts of Europe, but it is a non-controversial fact that Poles killed Jews in pogroms for centuries.

      Please don’t resort to name calling, it doesn’t help add weigh to your arguments and often hinders discussion. Plus, the word “retard” is offensive to many people.

        Yes, and making Poles ,for all intents and purposes, guilty of making killing jews a hobby in ages past is not offensive to some people?
         The comment is supposed to be conversational and dismissive because it is difficult to argue with an apparent believer in the evil of all evils, the Pole.
         And as for your “facts”. Sources.. or in the internet parlance of our times: pics or gtfo

        seriously

        Yes, and making Poles ,for all intents and purposes, guilty of making killing jews a hobby in ages past is not offensive to some people?
         The comment is supposed to be conversational and dismissive because it is difficult to argue with an apparent believer in the evil of all evils, the Pole.
         And as for your “facts”. Sources.. or in the internet parlance of our times: pics or gtfo

        seriously

        polgirl says:

         There is a distorted image of Poles as a nation having  nothing better to do than to torment Jews.  If Jews lived under such a constant threat of pogroms, they could have left, but they didn’t; they remained in Poland for centuries (besides, probably no one else would take them).  David Frum had a piece the other day in The Daily Beast on this subject, but so many of the post-ers here are poisoned by their hatred of Poland, they would accuse him of revisionism.

        polgirl says:

         There is a distorted image of Poles as a nation having  nothing better to do than to torment Jews.  If Jews lived under such a constant threat of pogroms, they could have left, but they didn’t; they remained in Poland for centuries (besides, probably no one else would take them).  David Frum had a piece the other day in The Daily Beast on this subject, but so many of the post-ers here are poisoned by their hatred of Poland, they would accuse him of revisionism.

leucippe says:

It all depends on what you mean by ‘Polish.’  If territorial, then ‘Polish’ is appropriate and the hysteria over its use is way out of proportion (and not entirely accurate).  If ‘Polish’ is a substitute for ‘German’ or for ‘Nazi’ in respect of ownership, that’s a different thing.  I do not think that the majority of the world who know anything about Nazi death camps would imagine that they were Polish, except in the first sense as observed above.  But Poland, as we know, is extremely sensitive on this point.  After years of post-war distortions of history, little by little Poland is regaining respectability in regard to considering the pros and cons of its unhappy past.

Difficult subject. However I sympathize with the Polish  hurt sensibilities. It was a gaffe.

Josselewicz says:

Characterizing Professor Gutman, a long-time member of the faculty of the Hebrew University, as a Polish historian is a little misleading.

emunadate says:

Great article.  
They are correct in taking a stand. The death camps were the Nazi’s. And that should be retracted. 
That being said, “Methinks Poland dost protest too much.” 
It seems they have some kind of complex. See this Oprah about Auschwitz. She talks about the community where Auschwitz is located.  
http://emunadate.blogspot.com/2012/04/oprah-and-elie-weisel-at-auschwitz-part.html 

     Hardly, head of the most powerful nation on earth says something and it is difficult to ignore. In case like that, there is no such thing as protesting too much. Not until an official apology.

Dick Stanley says:

Funny how you repeatedly blame the speechwriter. Is Obama a robot incapable of editing what he is handed to read?

    kevdog says:

    No, but the sheer number of speeches and public words spoken on a weekly basis put a greater burden on those whose words will be spoken by the President.

    Simple answer, YES.

    Odonnelthepig says:

    The Jews did all they could to bring about WWII and did little to end it.  Although, a great number of Jews who died were inocent many were not by promoting Comunism or other political belives.  Hitler was part Jewish himself and signed a pact with the Zionist to allow all Jews to leave Germany with all their belongings if they went to Isreal.  If they went elsewere they had to leave their belongings to Germany.  By the way how many American babies have been killed by Jewish abortion doctors or owners of Jewish own clinics?  Talk about taking money, just take a look at Face Book.

      Uhh.. please stop. This is the kind of nonsense that needs to be rooted out. We should be talking facts and events. Lets talk about Lavon Affair. Lets talk about Palestine. Lets talk, but do not let distortions and simple human disdain for facts that do not comply with their respective world view cloud the horizon.

      You might as well argue that Poland started WWII because they did not agree to German demands.

      Focus,

ste88ven says:

It seems the Poles in trying to rewrite history are the ultimate Holocaust deniers.  Polish antisemitism is well known and their delight at the arrest of their neighbors by the Nazis says it all. The Germans knew where to put the death camps.  How many camps were in Denmark?  Now the Poles are after the tourist dollars of those who return to grieve.  

    oaklandj says:

     I am not defending anti-Semitism, but your post is full of distortions. The reason there were so many camps in Poland and not in Denmark is because there were many, many more Jews in Poland than Denmark. The Nazis set up camps close to the largest Jewish population centers.
    Polish attitudes towards Jews is mixed; there were lots of anti-Semites, and violent ones at that, and yet over 5,000 of the 16,000+ Righteous Among the Nations were Polish, more than any other nationality.
    Even today, you will see a mix of attitudes. I am not Polish but lived there for two years and that was my experience.

      polgirl says:

      The Germans were nothing if not meticulous and frugal in the use of their resources.  There were twice as many Jews in Warsaw alone than there were in all of Denmark.  This yardstick holds true for most Jewish populations in pre-war Western Europe.

        rocky2345 says:

         Warsaw had almost 400,00o Jews in 1939 vs. 8,000 for Denmark.

        Hey moron! Care to tell us how many Jews lived in Ukraine, Belorus and Latvia? Way more than in Poland. Now, vare to tell us how many camps were built in Ukraine, Belorus and Latvia? Poles are more than wiling to help out Germans, stop re-writing history. You guys are only second to Arabs in your rabid anti-semitism. Please tell us just how many Jews in Poland these days and what took place in 1958-9 and then 1969 if you are so smart. Do you even know what the hell this discussion is about?

           Oh my, are we muslim communist jew haters too?

          And yes, the discussion is about you and your world view: a misguided perception and we are attempting to correct with facts.

          Yes, you are resisting, but facts are a bitch.

          polgirl says:

          Actually, on the eve of WW2, and one third of all European Jewry lived in Poland.  A large number (but not as many) lived in the USSR, mostly on territory that had earlier been part of Poland.  The Germans employed a different method for the Final Solution in the USSR, namely, having the victims themselves  dig the trenches into which they would fall after being shot en masse..

          alezwasidioci says:

           Fuck you.

          stannadel says:

           Riddick–Babi Yar, Male Trost/Minsk, milions of Jews were killed in Ukraine, Belarus & Latvia.  Jews were deported from Vienna to Minsk to be murdered.  So learn some history & cut the crap.

          Geocars says:

          The Germans weren’t occupying Ukraine, Belorus and Latvia, the Russians were.  The Russians invaded Poland on 17th September 1939, as per the deal they had done with Germany on 23rd August 1939 (check it out, it was the Molotov-Ribbentrop Agreement).  

          No doubt your teachers “forgot” to tell you about that, probably because it ruins your rabid antipolonic fairytale.

          If ever there were a shining example of why antisemitism exists, you are it.  I hope your people are proud of you.

          Bosstone says:

           “…only second to Arabs”?  According to recent research, there is more anti-semitism in present day Hungary and Spain than in Poland.  Hungary hasn’t had Jews since WW2, and Spain expelled their Jews more than six hundred years ago (and BTW, they went to Poland).

          Bosstone says:

          “…only second to Arabs”?  According to recent research, there is more anti-semitism in Hungary and Spain than in Poland.  Hungary has had virtually no Jews since WW2, and Spain expelled their Jews more than six hundred years ago (and they went to Poland!).

    rocky2345 says:

     The Germans considered the Danes (the Christian ones anyway) to be Aryans, with their blond hair and blue eyes. The Poles and other Slavs were considered by the Germans to be not much better than the Jews. The Polish intellectuals were killed off at the beginning of the war and the eventual German plan was to treat the Slavs as practically slaves. 

      ste88ven says:

      No the Danes would not have tolerated camps in their midst.  Just as the Bulgarians said no when the Germans wanted to send their Jews to camps.
      And none went!

         How did exactly Bulgarians say no to Germans ?  Or Danes ?  And how did Poles suppose to say no to Germans ? Your ignorance and simplistic views are simply limitless. Learn something about real events, before you make such a comments.

          rocky2345 says:

           The Bulgarian government including the king refused to co-operate with their German allies when it came to rounding up Jews and in fact most of Bulgaria’s Jews survived the war. The Danes smuggled almost all of their Jews to Sweden in 1943 via small boats when word got out that a roundup was imminent. As I noted elsewhere, there was not even a pretense of an independent government in Poland after the invasion.  

          polgirl says:

          Germany did not treat occupied countries equally.  The occupation in Poland was much harsher than in countries like Holland or Denmark, which the Germans considered their ethnic equals, unlike the Untermenschen Poles.   In those places, no one was executed for giving a Jew a piece of bread. Furthermore, there were 200,000 Jews in Denmark vs. 3,500,000 in Poland.  You are correct on one point: there was no “independent” — collaborationist — regime in Poland after the invasion.  You are inadvertently emphasizing a point which Poles consistently make when accused of collaboration.

          polgirl says:

          Germany did not treat occupied countries equally.  The occupation in Poland was much harsher than in countries like Holland or Denmark, which the Germans considered their ethnic equals, unlike the Untermenschen Poles.   In those places, no one was executed for giving a Jew a piece of bread. Furthermore, there were 200,000 Jews in Denmark vs. 3,500,000 in Poland.  You are correct on one point: there was no “independent” — collaborationist — regime in Poland after the invasion.  You are inadvertently emphasizing a point which Poles consistently make when accused of collaboration.

          stannadel says:

           25,000 Jews survived in hiding in Warsaw, each had to have at least 10 non-Jewish helpers–every one of whom risked their life.

          rocky2345 says:

           The Bulgarian government including the king refused to co-operate with their German allies when it came to rounding up Jews and in fact most of Bulgaria’s Jews survived the war. The Danes smuggled almost all of their Jews to Sweden in 1943 via small boats when word got out that a roundup was imminent. As I noted elsewhere, there was not even a pretense of an independent government in Poland after the invasion.  

        The Danes and Bulgarians maintained their own governments (though, in the Danish case, under German occupation). There was no Polish government, not even a puppet one; Poland’s territory was either annexed to Germany, or put under military regime. The military-ruled Generalgouvernment was the obvious to put the death camps, if you wanted to keep them secret.

          ste88ven says:

          What does any of this have To do with the fact that the Poles delighted in seeing their Jewish neighbors killed

          ste88ven says:

          What does any of this have To do with the fact that the Poles delighted in seeing their Jewish neighbors killed

        The Danes and Bulgarians maintained their own governments (though, in the Danish case, under German occupation). There was no Polish government, not even a puppet one; Poland’s territory was either annexed to Germany, or put under military regime. The military-ruled Generalgouvernment was the obvious to put the death camps, if you wanted to keep them secret.

    I’m fairly certain that the Nazis couldn’t have cared less what the Poles thought  about what was being done on their soil or whether they “tolerated” the extermination of their Jewish neighbors or not, because the Nazis considered the Poles (unlike the Danes or most other Europeans) to be almost as sub-human as the Jews.  They believed the Poles’ only purpose was servitude and obedience to them, so if anyone dared to defy the Final Solution policy and tried to help the Jews, they were happy to execute him.  Not to mention the fact that Poland was dismally inferior in terms of military strength, so it really didn’t matter what the Poles thought, they had no way to stop the Holocaust themselves.  (Though the Polish resistance, mainly Jan Karski, brought eyewitness accounts and documentation of the crimes being perpetrated in the ghettos and camps to the U.S. and British governments, who refused to do anything to stop them.  But that’s a whole ‘nother discussion.)

     Yeah… because tourism in other areas that was awash with blood does not happen anywhere else. I would like you to visit Gettysburg as a neutral comparison of going “after tourist dollars”.
     Also, I think you purposefully misuse the phrase “Holocaust deniers”. We hardly deny it. Hell, I am writing here ensuring that people know what happened and WHO is responsible.
     Tbh, I lived in PL for my first 20 years and I don’t recall any antisemitism in my house and I can tell you that my family suffered some losses as well. It is funny, because the full strength of passion can be felt in the US. And, hold for the clincher, argued mostly by Holocaust apologists, “Holocaust industry” and its minions.

Frankly I have thought Israel Gutman’s work derivative and uninformative, so citing him doesn’t mean much to me. The truth is FRANCE and ITALY had the same kind of things going on as was the case in parts of Poland, the difference was that Polish Jewry had divided even more radically between rich, mainly converted Jews, usually Protestant not Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox centered in the city of Warsaw who in many cases married into Roman Catholic noble families so that there really wasn’t much “Jewish wealth” to fight over. The Germans in Poland were incredibly destructive to anything, even profitable factories and art works. ITALY and FRANCE are notarious places where clients of, auction house competitors of, Jewish art collectors were looted and extorted NOT BY GERMANs but their “long time friends and business associates”. But, as I explained the economics were different, in France and Italy there were observant Jews or unconverted Jews with huge assets of art and valuables to extort, Poland didn’t. And again, anyone who actually studies the orginal sad, depressing, tearing up the eyeballs, documents the German inhumane killers left, can see the Germans looted every thing of value down to shoes from their Jewish victims BEFORE deporting them or at the arrival points in the extermination process. The Holocaust is unbelieveably depressing at every stage, but it does not help prevent a repeat to distort history as too many are doing. For the record, and this infuriates Polish Roman Catholics, MORE or an EQUAL  NUMBER of  POLISH CHRISTIANS DIED AT AUSCHWITZ THEN JEWs. This is constantly ignored which is one of the reasons for the Polish feelings on this subject. And, frankly, when this paper recently refers to “Jewish partisans fighting in Germany”, an OUT AND OUT LIE, the only Jewish Partisans were a few in France, a few in Italy, some in Poland, Lithuania, what is now White Russia and the Ukraine, but NEVER in the Netherlands (the Jews were all butchered or fled), Germany (there was no “Partisan” fighting against Hitler, that is the greatest burden for the German People) it doesn’t help matters. And, yes, today, in the Przemysl State Archives which helps large numbers of Jews how come or call them for help with their family histories without charge, an honour graduate of Lublin’s world reknown Catholic University and asked me how the US president could do this to his People. This is a young man who makes peanuts and spends about 20% of his time helping non Polish speaking Jewish visitors trace their family trees.

    ste88ven says:

    Did you say an equal number of Polish Christians died at Auschwitz??????   Where do you get your “facts”?

      Auschwitz was initially built for Polish gentile POWs.

        polgirl says:

        Actually, not necessarily POWs: Polish  civilians were routinely rounded up on the streets by Germans, especially in retribution for resistance activity against them.  My uncle was caught in such a round up but miraculously survived Auschwitz, although he returned with TB and died shortly thereafter.

        genelevit says:

        The first prisoners in Auschwitz were Soviet POWs.

      polgirl says:

      Not at Auschwitz itself, although the first prisoners there were Polish Christians.  Overall, though, equal numbers of Polish Jews and Polish Christians perished under German occupation.

        ste88ven says:

        “Equal number of Polish Jews and Polish Christians died under German occupation.”  This is a good example of Polish revisionism.  There will never be peace for Poles until they own up to their virulent antisemitism and stop trying to rewrite history.

          polgirl says:

          Six million Polish citizens were killed during WW2.  This is a fact.  Three million were Jews, and the other three million were…who?  Your polonophobia precludes an intelligent discussion of the subject.  The Germans must be delighted that the blame for the Holocaust has been shifted from them onto the Poles, one of  the nations they brutally victimized.

          I really don’t have an opinion one way or the other. Wasn’t there. I can only tell you what Joe said to me many years ago. Joe and his wife both Polish Jews survived two years in Auschwitz. To quote Joe, ” The Poles were worse than the Germans.” I was a bit shocked to hear this as a young boy. I mean, it was Germany that planned and executed the Holocaust. Would have thought that all anger and rage would be directed towards the designers. But, Joe’s first hand experience in Poland formed his opinion. And that was his statement. What do you think caused him to make such a brutal statement about an entire people?

           Anecdote evidence aside I will answer the question simply: war.
           But then, I do not believe you:> Anyone can write anything they want about Joe Schmoe on the interwebz:>

          polgirl says:

          As I posted earlier, this is stereotyping, something which Jews accuse others of.    Your friends base this stereotype on their own limited experience.  I wouldn’t call all Jews “Bolsheviks” or “communists” just because there were Jews who collaborated with the Soviets and denounced their Polish neighbors.

          polgirl says:

           I have also heard some Poles say that they suffered more under the Soviets and their Jewish collaborators than bec. of the Germans.  This would not justify stereotyping all Russians or Jews, just as it doesn’t give “Joe” license to make, as you put it, “such a brutal statement about an entire people”.   

          polgirl says:

           I have also heard some Poles say that they suffered more under the Soviets and their Jewish collaborators than bec. of the Germans.  This would not justify stereotyping all Russians or Jews, just as it doesn’t give “Joe” license to make, as you put it, “such a brutal statement about an entire people”.   

          Ok, disprove us using a historical source.

          Brainwashed generation. Sad…

          Did you vote for Putin during last election ? After Lenin, Stalin, millions of people who died in Gulags you are talking about brainwashing. What about Katyn and Pres. Kaczynski. Who killed all those people. George Orwell must be turning in his grave.

           As opposed to whom…

           Yes, it is, it is a shame we cannot be as enlightened as you are:>

           Yes, it is, it is a shame we cannot be as enlightened as you are:>

      History of Poland. Edition 132, Hugely Revised and heavily Edited.

kevdog says:

“no Poles eagerly worked as death camp guards.”

I don’t see how this statement can be justified from the available facts.

    Ok, show us the facts.

      ste88ven says:

      The Polish Home Army had a slogan after the war.  It was “Poland without Jews”.  

        I would appreciate a citation to a historical source.  And anyway, this “slogan” does not even imply that Poles worked as camp guards, which is the argument of the above post.

         Members of PHA never had such a slogan. They were killed by Nazis durin the war, and they were hunted down and killed by UB and soviets after the war. You probably do not know what UB was . This was something between KGB/GRU and Gestapo. And 70-80% of people in charge of this institution were Jewish. Nothing is really simple. And one more thing: only in Poland people were killed with their families for helping Jews and still were Poles who did it. Would you do this ? It’s very easy to comment on those things sitting at your PC and watching Dancing with the Stars. Think about it.

      kevdog says:

      I’m not the one who made the blanket statement, the burden of proof is not mine.

        Digital magazine articles like this one generally don’t provide citations for statements like this, but there are numerous other articles and historical texts I’ve seen that provide the same claim.  There is just no evidence of Poles working as camp guards.

        ExpatInvader says:

        Did you see my above post?  It contains a link to an article written by an international award winning Jewish historian stating amongst other things that no Poles worked as Death Camp guards, eagerly or otherwise.

    ExpatInvader says:

    Here is a good article on the Polish role in the holocaust which talks about Polish concentration camp guards

    http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/special_reports/?content_id=5962 

    “Poles did not serve as guards in the camp � or any camp, other than some small labour camps �, although prisoners of all nationalities (including Jews) were made Kapos” 

    polgirl says:

    The camps guards were overwhelmingly from other occupied countries such as Ukraine and the Baltic states, where the SS recruited very successfully from the local populations.

      kevdog says:

      No one disputes that. But to make the categorical statement quoted above requires some evidence. It beggars belief to think that not a single Pole was eager to see Jews in this position.

        polgirl says:

        “Not a single Pole”?  Please re-read my earlier comment.  The guards were, for the MOST  part, brought in from other occupied territories. And there were also Jewish capos among the camp guards.

      Another lie. 

nste88ven, for the record “Jewish Tourist Dollars” in Poland is a crock! Jews who come in groups like tourist groups from Germany, Austria, are more a pain in the neck for Poles as they stay in FOREIGN OWNED hotels on FOREIGN OWNED buses. As for the “income” Poland derives from Jewish historical and genealogical research, that”s a joke! Since coming to Poland in 1980 to do family (Jewish in Poznan and Roman and Greek Catholic in Przemysl and Rzeszow) I have only seen detailed mailed inquiries being “billed” for time and copies. You can walk into any Polish Government funded State Archive and get, despite not knowing Polish, help in getting any document available at not cost except copying, about 25 cents to l dollar a page depending on the kinds of copies. Today by the way you don’t even have to pay for copies, you can photograph any document with a digital camera. I suppose there are Jewish tourists who use the Polish Airline or Polish railroad, I have yet to meet a fellow Jewish historian or genealogist except at the Hotel in Przemysl, otherwise they drive or take foreign airlines. Your  comment is as wrong factually as it is racist and arrogant.

rocky2345 says:

The pogrom at Kielce in 1946 was not caused by German Nazis but by Catholic Poles. The Poles shouldn’t be so touchy. Tens of thousands of Jews were murdered in Galicia at the end of WWI as Poles, Ukrainians and Russians fought each other in the Bolshevik revolution, with Jews being caught in the middle.

I wonder how many people in the State Department could even find Galicia on a historical map of Europe? Chances are they would be thinking of the other Galicia (in Spain).  

    oaklandj says:

     That’s true. There were pogroms started by Poles that never involved the Nazis. But many, many more occurred in Russia. Why does Poland get demonized in a way that Russia never does, then, in our community?

      rocky2345 says:

       Russian pogroms have been demonized. Remember the movie “Fiddler on the Roof”?

      polgirl says:

      There were about a dozen pogroms in Soviet-occupied Europe after the war, two in Czechoslovakia alone.  There is strong evidence that these were instigated by the Soviets themselves.

        Right, blame others for your deeds. I grew up in USSR and when told to do certain things that were contrary to my beliefs I refused. I know, this takes courage, something Poles have lost a couple of centuries ago, but something tells me, as with Germans, Poles were more than happy to “follow orders”.

        Stop posting lies and suppositions. I lived among Poles, you are only second to Arabs in your rabid hatred of Jews. Until this day. Just read the post a bit above, it spews hatred only because “there is no income from Jewish tourism”. Leaving one simple question left on the table: Why would the group so persecuted and exterminated by Poles for centuries now give their money willingly to Poles?
         

          Riddick, your disdain to Poles and Arabs is noted. Now, could we talk about the money since you seem so eager to do that.
          Last time I checked, it is the “Holocaust industry” that wants to extorts money from Poland.
          You were saying?:> Why should the Poles give money willingly to you?:>

          polgirl says:

          Oh, really?  There were numerous rebellions in Poland during communism, culminating in Solidarity, which was the catalyst for the collapse of the Iron Curtain.  But of course, you will find a way to twist this reality as well.

          oaklandj says:

          You seem to have absorbed some of that Russian hatred of Polish people. To suggest Poles hate Jews more than Russians is simply laughable.

Ste88ven, the death camps were in Poland because out of all occupied territories it already had by far the largest concentration of Jews residing there (over 3 million), and so obviously it was logically easiest to just build the camps there instead of transporting all those people to a place like Denmark.  Poland was also the country that the Nazis unleashed the most brutality on from the very start – so I imagine that in between the physical destruction and the psychological brutality, the Germans thought the Polish gentiles would be too physically and morally weak to resist, especially to something not done to them personally but to someone they didn’t always particularly like in the first place.  I think it’s still remarkable that despite the very well-known and tremendous risks, many thousands of Poles still helped their Jewish neighbors.  Imagine that you’re told over and over that if you offer any help to a member of this minority that you may or may not be fond of – whether it’s hiding them in your home or just offering a ride or a piece of bread or glass of water – you and your entire family will be shot to death.  You’ve seen it happen, you’ve heard of entire towns and villages being burned to the ground because one Jewish family was being hidden there.  What would you do?
 
And as for “tourist dollars,” my understanding (and I may be wrong, this isn’t from personal experience) is that the Holocaust sites are open to visitors for free or pretty cheap, and they try to somewhat limit the number of visitors they allow in to not create distracting crowds.

    oaklandj says:

     Good point. I remember reading that only among Poles was the death penalty given for helping Jews; if other nationalities that were supposedly so much better to Jews not under threat of death for helping Jews survive, why didn’t they do so more often? (This is not meant to castigate other Europeans, but to point out the ignorance of claiming that Poles were somehow more anti-Semitic and more likely to collaborate with the Nazis than others)

    ste88ven says:

    Evelina:  the Germans had no problem transporting hundreds of thousands Jews from France, Hungary, Greece Belgium, Holland etc. to Auschwitz.   Transportation was not the problem.
    They needed a friendly country to kill Jews and Poland was it!

      I’m not talking about hundreds of thousands, I’m talking about over 3 MILLION Jews in Poland that they didn’t have to waste time or resouces to relocate.  But I’m pretty sure that you have your mind made up no matter what I say.

        polgirl says:

        Re Ste88ven, Yes, his mind is made up and he doesn’t want to be confused by facts.

      polgirl says:

      Yes, really friendly, when Hitler is on record extolling Germans to “kill without mercy all men, women, and children of Polish language and origin”.

      She is still clueless, as a communist useful idiot should be. 

       Think about how incoherent you sound.  Every country in Europe was a ‘friendly’ country for killing Jews and Auschwitz could have been built in Germany itself, if we accept the premise that everyone who was not Jewish had a homicidal outlook on Jews.

wiesianiziol says:

The article pretends to be fair with respect to the war history of Poland but ends up being extremely biased. There were some 300-1000 people killed in Jedwabne (and some more in the North-East of Poland in the summer of 1941 when Soviet occupation changed into German). There were some 700 Jewish people killed in Poland after 1945, some of them out of racism, in a period of civil war and postwar total chaos in Poland when some 50,000 people were killed and executed (by Stalinists). And all partisan groups  during the war had blood  on their hands; that includes Soviet partisans and Jewish partisans. Bielski brothers, in particular (a fact easy to check).

  The writer mentions these facts in detail but is not able or willing to talk in detail about the heroism of Poles and the positive aspects of Polish-Jewish relations during the war. Does he know them ? How about the proud moment when the Ghetto fighters had both Polish and Izraeli flag on the top of a building in the Ghetto – a sign that their fight was the fight of Jews and Poles. How about the 2,500 Jewish children smuggled out of Ghetto by Irena Sendler and hidden in Polish homes; are they less important than the people who were killed in Jedwabne ? How about Zegota- an organization created by Polish government-in-exile to help Polish-Jews. And how about something really big – the acceptance of some 500,000 Jewish refugees from the Soviet Union and some 100,000 later from Germany. All before the war. All while US would not take the passengers of StLouis .

 The response to Gutman is also obvious: nowhere in Europe there was as many Jews as in Poland (all Russian Jews are in fact Polish Jews since Russian tzars did not allow Jews to settle). That in every possible measure. And nowhere in Europe German  hunt for Jews was more vicious and bloody.

    Hmmm… Another obvious and non-factual LIE. The reason Russian Revolution took place was because of these non-existing Jews, as you claim. Russia had what was called The Line of Settlement, North of which Jews were not allowed to live/settle, and the line was roughly running at the northern point of Belorus. So, despite your clueless claims that Russia had no Jews living there, IN FACT more Jews lived there (Belorus and Ukraine were part of Russia) than in Poland. WAY MORE than in Poland. It was Ukrainian and Russian bron Jews how founded Israel. Jabotinsky, anyone? Golda Meir? Many others. Learn history before posting obvious lies.

    So, back to the question I posted above. With way more Jews living in USSR, can you tell us how many concentration camps Germans built there?

      In order to build concentration camps somewhere, the Germans first would need total occupation and control of that place.  That was the case with Poland from the start of the war, unlike the USSR.

      Putting something in all caps doesn’t make it fact.

      Obviously you decided already who is who, and everything is black and white.  Just one information. The war started 09/01/39. Germans started building camps and creating ghettos few months after that. They could not build anything in USSR, because they were not there till summer 1941. After that thing happen rather quickly. Soviet and German armies moved rather rapidly. Jews were not the biggest problem for Nazi generals. The captured 5-6 millions Russian POWs. More than half of them died ,mostly of starvation. And many Polish, Ukrainian and Russian Jews went east.

      Bogdan51 says:

      Riddick you are a CRETIN!

Jayson2 says:

Letter  by Pesach Szmusz

In June 1941 the Nazis came to us, and since then, there are no bakeries and no more of our Bialystok Jews.The Nazis killed almost all of us. I was in Auschwitz and other concentration camps with Samuel Pisar, and I was liberated in Dachau, then spent four months in a tuberculosis hospital. I went back to Bialystok and left shortly with a curse on my lips and a promise never to return to that cursed land and people again.
Poland was the only country where young Jews were killed after the war. I don’t forgive the Nazis, but I don’t forgive the Poles either. When the Nazis came to Bialystok on June 27th 1941, Poles showed them where the Jews lived and Poles robbed the Jewish houses. The Nazis did not build Auschwitz, Treblinka or Maidanek in France, Belgium or Holland. They built them in Poland because they knew the Poles would help them kill the Jews. The Poles were partners in our destruction.

Please forgive me for expressing my thoughts. I was 20 years old in the Bialystok ghetto, 23 years old in Auschwitz, and 100 years older after the liberation. I am still not liberated and I will not be free until my last day.And this is the story of the bialystoker kuchen. I do not think any Bialystoker can tell you more.

Sept.1 2011

Jewish memorial in Poland vandalized. Note message left by vandals. Note  most residents didn’t care to attend.
 
http://digitaljournal.com/article/310995

The extermination camps were built in Poland.  Referring to them as Polish death camps (an accidental gaffe), is not that  outragous, as that is where the camps are.  

 Seriously. Displaying such indignation over  a presidential gaffe,  is almost laughable. Look to your own dark past & present, before being so quick to condemn another. 

    ste88ven says:

    Pesach’s letter says it all

      polgirl says:

      I am sorry for Mr. Szmusz’s terrible wartime experience and would not presume to diminish the horror of it or to absolve those who perpetrated the suffering on him.  My mother grew up in the Bialystok region; Jews and Christians in her town enjoyed good relations– both business and personal —  before the war, in contrast to the skewed version portrayed in the media.  When the Soviets invaded and occupied eastern Poland in 1939 as part of their pact with Germany, they began a large scale operation of ethnic cleansing, ultimately sending millions of ethnic Poles (including my mother and her family)  to Siberia.  The hard truth is that many Jews collaborated with  the Soviets during their occupation of eastern Poland from Sept. 1939 until June 1941 or, at best, were indifferent to the plight of their Polish neighbors who were being shunted into cattle cars for a three-week trip to the gulag. These deportations ended only when Stalin’s  Nazi German cohorts launched an invasion of the USSR in June 1941 and one tyranny in eastern Poland was replaced by another.   Unfortunately, when the Germans entered eastern Poland, there were some Poles who took revenge on Jews for their collaboration with the previous invaders.  I am NOT condoning their actions (so spare me the hate mail), but this was revenge, an eye for an eye for Jewish collaboration with the Soviets. No one comes out clean in this.   As for the Germans building their camps in Poland rather than Belgium, France or Holland, I noted in a previous posting that they did so because Poland had a highly disproportional pre-war Jewish population compared to Western Europe.  Moreover, the camp guards were primarily from Ukraine and the Baltic States and the first victims were Polish Catholics.   No one, even Jan Gross, can produce evidence from German archives that they built their death camps in Poland because they were counting on Polish complicity.

        Polgirl brings up a very interesting aspect of Polish-Jewish relations that can’t be ignored:  Many Poles perceive Jews as having collaborated with the Soviets, who ultimately held Poland captive under a soul-crushing communist regime for 50 years, and this is likely an impetus for at least some of the anti-Semitism during and after the war, and probably still today.  I don’t know just how many Jews welcomed the Soviets, and the Poles’ perceptions of this may be exaggerated.  But it is true that there were Polish Jews in the Communist Party in the early years, because they believed in the socialist ideal and thought their lot would be better under such a system.  When it became clear that the communist regime was not what they had hoped for, they rebelled just as much as the Polish gentiles.

          Wow! What a re-write of the historial FACTS! There were almost no Jews left in Poland after WWII, they were either exterminated or left the country on their own accord. The few that decided to stay after their release from POLISH concentration camps were badly mistreated by the supposedly loving Poles.  If anyone wants to check the FACTS, despite any Pole here trying to tell you otherwise, should check the numbers of Jews living in Poland before USSR collapse and after, the numbers are more than staggering. There are almost no Jews left in Poland these days after the collapse of USSR empire, so much for Poles living in peace with Jews. ALL LIES! Only Arabs hate Jews more than Poles, this is from personal experience back to my USSR days and after. To blame Jews for their mistreatment by Poles is just absolute crap, Poles should come clean, as Germans did, and admit to their gleeful willingness in  helping Germans to exterminate Jews.

          Lear history before you post obvious lies.

          There was a small number of Jews left in Poland after WWII.  Most of them were exiled during the communist regime’s response to the public protests of the late 1960’s.

          Where did I say that Poles are living in peace with Jews in Poland today?  I don’t think your reply relates to my post very well.  I’m also not blaming Jews for their own mistreatment, I’m simply presenting a perception that some Poles have about Jews, which incites them toward anti-Semitic action.

          EvanStone says:

           Their hatred towards Jews goes back to the beginning of the Polish Roman Catholic Church.  That was way before the Communists.  And perhaps, before they even met a Jew.

          David Gold says:

          hey there is your buthole puckering fromall the korans and sh*t in it

        Marina Sapir says:

        Blame the Jews! It was their fault that Poles did not like them. Here is the true Polish logic. This response tells me more about persistent and culturally approved Polish anti-Semitism than politically-correct article could tell. 
        It is curious that, in polgirl’s view, Jews had to tell Russian where the Polish are in Poland hiding. Were 95% of native population hiding behind the powerful treacherous Jews?  Just crazy nonsense. There were no Russian ethnic cleansing of Poland – otherwise, there would be no Poland anymore.  

          Blame the Poles! It was their fault for having their country destroyed, their countrymen enslaved or worse and families killed. They are truly responsible at what happened on this war torn land. Definitely not the Germans. Nu-uh.
           Naturally, Nazi Germany can’t be blamed. Oh no. Because it is not kosher anymore to blame the Germans anymore. Why? Because they paid the extortion for the silence on the matter.
           Also, allow me to give you some thoughts to consider. The fact that you are insisting Poles are, BY DEFAULT, anti-semitic, creates more antipathy than anything else.

          Michael Shapiro says:

          Poland (however its borders define it, at any specific time) has a long and well documented history of Anti-Semitism.  

          What many, who are posting in this discussion, fail to note is that the Polish Anti-Semitism was rooted in their Catholicism.  No matter what you may think of John XXIII’s reforms and any level of Anti-Semitism that exists in today’s Catholic Church, at that time, and before, the Church was virulently Anti-Semitic.  

          The key disconnect is that, as Hannah Arendt pointed out, the religiously sponsored Anti-Semitism (Catholic or Eastern Orthodox) significantly differs from Nazi Anti-Semitism.

          It was, however, necessary for the former to be in place for the latter to take effect.

          EvanStone says:

           Germany attacked Poland first because they knew how easy it would be to overtake the Polish cavalry with tanks.
          They also knew that it had a huge Jewish population and that anti-Semitism was not hard to find. 
          It was part propaganda along with their war machine.
          Sorry for Poland that they did not have an updated army, as they would have had a fighting chance & then just maybe the Germans would not have been able to have done the damaged they did.
          By the way, Poles (or any other group) are not anti-Semetic by default, they are by choice. 
          In fact, a majority choice.
          Pope John XXIII was golden, if only more people could be like he was.

          RichardBlazer says:

          EvanStone you sound like an Anti-Polish Bigot Moron.  Poland with 30 million people was viciously attacked by Nazi Germany with 74 million people AND its good ally Soviet Russia which had 140 million people.  So how the hell were the Poles supposed to fight TWO huge homicidal nations working together to anihilate Polish people??

          The Nazi Germans only had 40 days of oil and war material but thanks to Soviet Russia giving them 3 years of oil and supplies the Nazi Germans had a virtual unlimited capacity to murder and torture Polish and Jewish people.

          If Nazi Germany was not provided with all the aid they were from their good friend and ally Soviet Russia as per their friendship pact the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact…..the Nazi Germans would have had only about 40 days of ability to overrun Poland to destroy Poles and Jew.   Did you know that you moron???

          Also if Poles were so anti-semitic, WHY were you Jews so stupid to CHOOSE to live in “anti-semetic” Poland for ONE THOUSAND YEARS???

          Either you are not telling the truth about Poland’s relations with Jews, or Jews have to be the BIGGEST IDIOTS ON EARTH to WANT TO CHOOSE to live in “anti-semitic” Poland for ONE THOUSAND YEARS!

          What kind of idiot ethnic group CHOOSES to LIVE in a country that doesn’t like them?? Evidently its the Jewish people, if what you say about “Polish anti-semitism” is correct.

          EvanStone says:

          FYI:

          Poland was attacked by Germany on September 1st 1939. The German attack was code-named Operation White (Fall Weiss). The attack on Poland started at 04.45 hours when blitzkrieg tore through the Polish military and by the end of the month Poland had surrendered to the Germans and the country was occupied.

          German tanks cross into Poland

          How did Germany achieve such an overwhelming victory?

          While the German Army had been developing new tactics and building new fighting vehicles to implement these tactics, the Polish Army, like many others in Europe, had stayed with a World War One mentality.

          A comparison of both armed forces clearly indicates the problems faced by Poland.

          Germany had 11 tank divisions compared to Poland’s 1;

          Germany had 40 infantry divisions compared to Poland’s 30;

          Germany four motorised divisions compared to none in Poland;

          Germany had one cavalry brigade compared to Poland’s eleven, some of who can be seen below.

          In terms of air power, the Germans had 850 bombers and dive-bombers (the JU-87) and 400 fighters. The Polish Air Force numbered 210 bombers and 150 fighters – though many of these were obsolete and clearly no match for the modern Luftwaffe that destroyed the Polish Air Force within two days of the first attack.

          The Polish Navy consisted of four destroyers, five submarines, two gunboats, a mine-layer and six mine sweepers – which meant that any German attack from the sea could not be repulsed. Despite the terms of Versailles, Germany had built a modern navy that totally outclassed the Polish Navy.

          Such a massive superiority of modern weaponry could only lead to one result – a swift and decisive victory for the Germans. General von Brauchitsch, Commander-in-Chief of the German Army, made it plain what he wanted in his first operational order for the campaign:
          “The object of the operation is the destruction of the Polish armed forces. The idea of execution is by a surprise entry into Polish territory.”

          An army group led by von Rundstedt attacked from the south while another army group led by von Bock attacked from the north. There had never been such a large mechanised attack before and General Walter Nehring, who worked under Heinz Guderian, claimed that many of the Wehrmacht’s senior officers were apprehensive as they had nothing to turn to if the attack failed or was stalled.

          One of the main concerns of those in charge, other than whether a mechanised attack would work, was that the German army was attacking in the north and south of Poland – but with very little in the middle to oppose any Polish counter-attack. There was a 185 mile gap between the German VIII Army based in the south in Silesia and the German IV Army in the north based in Pomerania. Between the two was Poland’s Poznan Army and for a while it posed a theoretical threat to the Wehrmacht with the potential to punch a hole into the rear of either German army and disrupting its progress.

          To ease this problem, the Germans put all their faith in a lightening attack that would a) militarily hammer the Poles and b) create such chaos in Poland that any form of a unified Polish attack simply would not occur. For the Germans, speed and success went together. By rolling back the Poles, the Germans assumed that they would always be advancing and any Polish unit would simply fall back in disarray even if it was not directly involved in a battle – such was the chaos and breakdown in command the Germans hoped to achieve.

          If the Poles were going to counter an attack, this has to be done before either German army group had advanced far into Poland. Both army groups had Warsaw as their target. As they both advanced, the 185 mile gap between them got smaller and smaller; the nearer both army groups got to each other, the more formidable they became. Also, the nearer both army groups got to each other was symptomatic of how far they had pushed back the Polish military, that by mid-September was in disarray. A Polish counter-attack at Bzura simply could not be sustained.

          The Poles had placed great value on the River Vistula to act as a natural barrier to any form of military advance. The Germans crossed the river on Day 5 of the attack. By this time, the Polish air force had been defeated and this had stripped the Polish Army of any form of air cover – it also meant that the Poles were easy targets for the Luftwaffe which was free to operate in Poland after September 2nd.

          When the Russians invaded eastern Poland on September 17th, the defeat of Poland was sealed. On September 24th, Warsaw was bombed by 1,150 German aircraft. On September 27th, Warsaw surrendered. The last Polish troops to surrender did so on October 6th.

          No-one doubts that the Polish military put up a brave fight but they were the first army to feel the full might of blitzkrieg – a tactic that was to push the British and French armies back to Dunkirk in 1940. Tanks versus a primarily non-mechanised army could only lead to one result.

          Ironically, many point to the impact of German tanks during the campaign. Yet it is known that many of the tanks used during the attack were equipped only with machine guns or small calibre guns – compared to later tank designs. What did the damage was the constant onslaught of all parts of blitzkrieg, including large numbers of tanks, that never allowed the Polish Army to gather its breath and re-group. Complete air superiority gave the Germans every opportunity to attack the retreating Poles – and fleeing civilians did a great deal to hinder a controlled withdrawal by the Polish military.

          According to the man credited with developing Germany’s blitzkrieg, Heinz Guderian, even Hitler was taken aback by its success.

          RichardBlazer says:

          EvanStone you’re missing the point.  

          I don’t disagree with you that Germany had a better army then Poland.   But 1939 Germany (74 million people) had a much better army mainly because it had a much bigger population then 1939 Poland (30 million people) to think up, design, produce the equipment it needed as well as provide the soldiers for its army (Its highly doubtful Germany would have been a military power with the same population as Poland – 30 million)

          Germany also had Soviet Russia  supplying it with huge quantities of WAR MAKING materials and FUEL.  This was part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop friendship pact signed by Russia and Germany 10 days before WWII.

          What good is an army with big powerful tanks, planes and artillery if they run out of fuel and ammunition?

          Germany only had about 40 days of fuel, bombs, bullets, iron ore to make planes, tanks, guns, artillery etc.   The German army also had limited food supplies, but even though many Soviets like Ukrainians were starving in the Soviet Union……Moscow made sure to keep the German war machine well fed.   This is documented in the movie “The Soviet Story”.  

          Not only that but from day one of the Nazi invasion of Poland, SOVIET RUSSIAN naval bases and air bases were providing support to German ships and German dive bombers.    As the movie “The Soviet Story” pointed out, Soviet Russian bases were GUIDING German dive bombers to their targets in Poland. 

          So if Germany was not being armed to the teeth with Russian food, oil, ammunition, iron ore, bomb making materials, the German war effort would have collapsed in Poland after 40 days for no other reason then it would have run out of supplies.   DID YOU KNOW THAT?? 

          Also the Polish airforce was not totally destroyed in 2 days  (that’s Nazi propaganda) because if that was true there would have been no Polish Squadrons in the Battle of Britain like “Squadron 303″ that destroyed more German planes then any other Allied Squadron.    You probably mean Polish planes were destroyed.   When Polish pilots had planes of equal ability with the Germans, the Poles destroyed the Germans in “The Battle of Britain”.

          Poland with 30 million people also had a problem being a multi-ethnic nation since a good portion of these non-Poles, like the Jews in Eastern Poland were like a fifth column and openly welcomed the Soviets when they invaded Poland and pointed out Polish soldiers (in hiding regrouping for an underground offensive ) to the Soviets for killing at Soviet Gulag concentration camps.    This despite, the Soviets later turning on the Jews when the Soviet leadership was ridding itself of its Jewish Soviet leaders later on.  

          In a nutshell Poland with 30 million people didn’t have the manpower and resources to fight TWO nations TOGETHER with a total population of 74 million (Germany) + 140 million (Soviet Union) and their manpower and resources.

          Blame the Poles! It was their fault for having their country destroyed, their countrymen enslaved or worse and families killed. They are truly responsible at what happened on this war torn land. Definitely not the Germans. Nu-uh.
           Naturally, Nazi Germany can’t be blamed. Oh no. Because it is not kosher anymore to blame the Germans anymore. Why? Because they paid the extortion for the silence on the matter.
           Also, allow me to give you some thoughts to consider. The fact that you are insisting Poles are, BY DEFAULT, anti-semitic, creates more antipathy than anything else.

          polgirl says:

           From Sept. 1939 until June 1941, the Soviets deported two million civilians to Siberia; most did not return.  This continued unabated until the German invasion of the USSR.  To say that there was no Russian ethnic cleansing of Poland bec. there would be no Poland would be like claiming that there was no holocaust bec. Jews are alive and thriving.  Jews did not have a monopoly on suffering.  You are no better than a holocaust denier.

        genelevit says:

        Yah, yah, Jews participated in “ethnic cleansing” of Poles! What else? Maybe they also used blood of Polish children to make the matzo bread?  Jews were “cleansed” by the Soviets even in bigger numbers than Poles. Take as an example the future Israeli prime minister Begin. 

        muskablei says:

        Ms. Polgirl,

        I’m somewhat
        tired of reading about the “revenge” that Polish patriots executed on Jews due
        their collaboration with the communist.

        To introduce
        myself. I’m a son of pre-war Polish-Jewish citizen who served in Polish cavalry
        before the war and during 1939 German invasion. 
        The following is my reaction to your tirade.

        Jews were
        depressed under Polish nationalistic regime. They lack the full range of citizens’
        rights. Many of them welcomed the communists because the Soviets offered them
        equality. And yes, please avoid the hindsight discussion what was the meaning
        of Soviet style equality. That is a different subject.

        Secondly,
        anyone with a some sense of honor will avoid executing a collective punishment
        on an entire Jewish nation, including elderly and sick.

        Third, read
        some of the Polish (Catholic) holocaust historians. They admit as to willing
        killing of unarmed Jews by their Polish neighbors.

        Pols were
        victims and murderers of the weak at the same time.

        Pols did
        not serve in SS because they were considered by Germans “Slavs” and “under
        human”.

        Polish anti-Semitism
        as a national policy exhibited itself even under communist regime of post war
        Poland. Read the facts.

        muskablei says:

        Ms. Polgirl,

        I’m somewhat
        tired of reading about the “revenge” that Polish patriots executed on Jews due
        their collaboration with the communist.

        To introduce
        myself. I’m a son of pre-war Polish-Jewish citizen who served in Polish cavalry
        before the war and during 1939 German invasion. 
        The following is my reaction to your tirade.

        Jews were
        depressed under Polish nationalistic regime. They lack the full range of citizens’
        rights. Many of them welcomed the communists because the Soviets offered them
        equality. And yes, please avoid the hindsight discussion what was the meaning
        of Soviet style equality. That is a different subject.

        Secondly,
        anyone with a some sense of honor will avoid executing a collective punishment
        on an entire Jewish nation, including elderly and sick.

        Third, read
        some of the Polish (Catholic) holocaust historians. They admit as to willing
        killing of unarmed Jews by their Polish neighbors.

        Pols were
        victims and murderers of the weak at the same time.

        Pols did
        not serve in SS because they were considered by Germans “Slavs” and “under
        human”.

        Polish anti-Semitism
        as a national policy exhibited itself even under communist regime of post war
        Poland. Read the facts.

          HannaH43 says:

          you know it’s hard to say but  friend I had when I was working in merchants Marines a man from Poland.
          We became good friends. He said at  14 years old Germans arrest.kicked that hell out in jail after four months in jail. Some Germans came by  asked him to join the SS and he do
          to get out  jail. I often wondered if he murdered my grandmother’s sisters G-D what a strange world
          PS we were together for two years and friends before I knew about the SS

          Michael Shapiro says:

          An absolutely wonderful and historically accurate response.  I doubt that PolGirl will buy it, despite verifiable facts.

          polgirl says:

           You’re right, I don’ t buy it, anymore than you don’t buy the image of Poles as being anything but rabid anti-semites.

          polgirl says:

          Other Slavs joined the SS in droves.
          Jews largely comprised the post-war puppet communist regime imposed by Stalin, who did not trust the Poles in this role.

          muskablei says:

          Jews came
          to Poland at the end of ME when they were expelled from most of the Christian
          Europe. Poland was socio-economically primitive country and the ruling elite
          needed educated economical accelerator. At the time Jews avoided Palestine because
          of the stupid prohibitions of the rabbinical leadership. For this they paid
          dearly. The Polish social elite and kings (most of them not of Polish origin)
          exploited the Jews for their benefits, used them as a shield against angry peasantry
          and provided economical justification for the hatred. The Polish church
          provided the ideological foundation for the peasantry to hate the Jews (“God murderers”).
          The rest of Jewish history in Poland is an unavoidable movement towards
          destruction and theatrical decoration of the future genocide. Alexander
          Solzhenitsyn, who cannot be “blamed” for the love of Jews, claims that the
          anti-Semitism among Russians was implanted by the Polish-Catholic church.

          As to your
          father’s story about AK attack. He just neglected to say that next and behind
          the Jewish workers were their children, the elderly and the sick. This would
          make any decent person to stay and protect them to the last of his own
          blood.  Compare this “Jewish passivity”
          to the facts of about 150 Jewish generals in WWII Red Army, one army group
          commander (3-4 armies) and about 50 Jewish “Heroes of the Soviet Union”
          cavaliers during the same period. All of the above had to be approved by Uncle
          Joe whom no one can accuse of being a sentimental Jew lover. Same Jews (most of
          Jews in Russia were from Poland) and such a different behavior. Don’t forget
          the many hundreds of thousands Jewish soldiers in US military in WWII who
          honorably served. My Father volunteered to Red Army. He was a devoted Zionist
          and anti-communist yet he knew who the enemy is.  

          On the
          subject of communist henchmen. Please give credit to a “distinguished polboy”
          Felix Dzerzhinsky the founding father of KGB (CHEKA during his life) and his
          successor Viacheslav Menzhinsky. Both Polish nobles. FYI Lavrenti Beria was a
          Migrelian national (a branch of Georgians, like Stalin) by no means a Jew.

          Regarding
          Begin. A distinguished and strong political leader and exceptional
          anti-communist.  A disciple of great
          leader and socio-political philosopher Zhabotinsky. Begin was a person with is
          called in Israel positively “Polish manners”. He knew what he is talking about.

          Regarding
          Slavs members of SS do provide your sources. There were such members in
          Wermakht and auxiliary units.

          Of course
          Stalin trusted the miserable leftovers of Polish Jews since they could not be
          Nazi collaborators or work for Polish nationalistic London government.

          Bosstone says:

          Re the AK raid:  The Jewish laborers could have gone to the forest with the resistance fighters who gave them the chance to escape.  Unfortunately, many Jews believed that being compliant to the Germans was the path to survival.  The incident described earlier took place in a factory removed from any camp, and there was no issue of leaving behind women and children.
          R: Jews arriving in Poland in the Middle Ages:  yes, they came bec. Poland had a need for merchant classes, but also bec. they were being driven out of other countries of Europe where they had overstayed their welcome; Poland offered a haven in which they stayed for centuries.
          Re Jews serving in armed forces during WW2:  they also served in the highest ranks of the Wermacht (Bryan Rygg “Hilter’s Jewish Soldiers”). 
           Re Slav members of SS: sources include Zentral Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltung in Ludwigsburg, Germany for Nazi records, and Insitute fur Zeitgeschichte,Munich, Germany  for info on the Third Reich. Also, “Hitler’s Foreign Legions”, Christopher Eger. 
          Re  Solzhenitsyn:  His vision of Russia was as a theocracy and it stands to reason that he would blame Roman Catholicism rather than  Russia and the Orthodox Church. The Russians were under no influence from the Poles in this regard. 

        IN THE BIALYSTOK REGION AND PARTICULARLY ALONG THE BUG RIVER MY JEWISH RELATIVES SURVIVED THE WAR BY BEING LOADED INTO CATTLE CARS AND TRAVELING TO SIBERIA, UZBEKISTAN AND KYRGYSTAN.  THEY SURVIVED BECAUSE THEY WEREN’T IN SARNAKI AND OTHER PLACES TO BE KILLED BY THE NAZIS.  NOT ALL LIVED BUT MOST DID.  
        THE RUSSSIANS TOOK A MILLION JEWS TO WORK FOR THEM IN FACTORIES AND ON FARMS.  THE SURVIVORS RETURNED TO BUILD NEW LIVES ANYWHERE BUT POLAND.

          polgirl says:

           I am sure that no one in Poland regretted their absence.

          RichardBlazer says:

          If Jews hated living in Poland so much, WHY were they so STUPID to CHOOSE to live in “anti-semitic” Poland for ONE THOUSAND YEARS??  Only IDIOTS CHOOSE to live in a country for ONE THOUSAND YEARS that they feel treats them unfairly!

          Bosstone says:

          It is a longstanding, irrefutable fact that almost none of the 3.5 million Jews in pre-war Poland survived the German occupation.  Therefore, it comes as a great revelation that ONE MILLION (!) of them survived the war in the USSR (and “returned …anywhere but Poland”!).  It appears that historians will have to revise the number of Holocaust victims from six million to five million.

    The Nazis did not build Auschwitz, Treblinka or Maidanek in France, Belgium or Holland. They built them in Poland because they knew the Poles would help them kill the Jews. ————–

    Actually I believe it was simple logistics. Most of the Jews lived in Poland and Western parts of USSR . French are no better than Poles when it comes to Jews. Probably worse: Vichy France not being occupied by NAZIs rounded up all their Jews on their own free will.
    And no, my nick name has nothing to do with Demjanuk, nor I am a NAZI sympathizer to any degree.

       Dr. Deborah E. Lipstadt, Dorot Professor of Modern Jewish and Holocaust Studies at Emory University in Atlanta, noted just what you contend regarding the Vichy government. In the pictures showing Jews being rounded up, the perpetrators are French gendarmes, not Nazis. Yet, she notes, while many people have no problem visiting Paris, they have issues with visiting Warsaw.  

        Bosstone says:

        For that matter, Jews should refrain from visiting almost all of Europe, since citizens of almost every country, whether occupied or allied with the Germans, cooperated with them in the denunciation and deportation of Jews.

          David Gold says:

          oh G-d it is someones fece’s speaking and writing Melanie has her thoughts brains etc confused with human and animal feces because she is full of said feces

    The article you linked implies that most Jedwabne residents didn’t attend the ceremony for the victims because they feel that everyone blames them for their parents’ or grandparents’ sins, so I gathered that they didn’t want to be around all these outsiders who they expected would vilify them.  Nowhere does it say that they “didn’t care to attend” or don’t feel sympathy for the victims, or that the locals themselves vandalized the memorial.

leucippe says:

The Polish responses to this article (judging by the names of the posters) are exactly the kind of paranoia that puts Polish credibility into question on the historical record.  Yes, of course, there were Poles who risked their lives to help their Jewish neighbors (and the price was high if they failed) — they deserve double credit –, but none of this accounts for overwhelming either the widespread indifference to or applause for the extermination of Jewish life in Poland during the war.  The record shows that more Jews in the forests were killed by Poles than by Germans.  Despite the prohibitions, nothing was done to curtail the blackmailers in the cities. Let’s look further:  The prewar record, with boycotts, numeri clausi, street fights, and the like make amply clear that after the death of Pilsudski, the dream of multiethnic Poland for all began to fade (and worse), with anti-semitism in the ascendancy.  Second, after the war the record of Polish treatment of Jews is still more deplorable: besides Kielce and Krakow, Jews were routinely murdered on return to their hometowns or warned to get out of town; they were pulled off trains too and killed; the story of Lena Kuchler Silbermann’s 100 orphans in Zakopane is another excellent case in point (local doctors refused to treat the children; the schools allowed them to be abused; vigilantes threatened the orphanage). The local government was sympathetic but could nothing to help them.  Many Jews returning to Poland from the Soviet Union, the camps and prisons, hoped to rebuild a Jewish life in Poland, but after Kielce, it was apparent that this was an idle dream.  And now let’s move on to 1968 and the further ‘expulsion’ of Jews from Poland.  So my Polish friends, who are replying to this news story, please take heed of the full picture rather than trot out the usual refutations.

    polgirl says:

    And the “full picture” also includes the fact that after the war, because he did not trust the Poles, Stalin installed mostly Jews rather than Poles into his puppet regime, and a majority of the secret police apparatus was Jewish.  This is examined by John Sack (a Jewish American) in his book “An Eye for an Eye”.  Tens of thousands of Poles were killed by the Communist regime — including the very people who had fought the Germans —  in what was essentially a civil war between 1944 and 1948.

      leucippe says:

       Sack is hardly a reliable historian, but even so, what does your information have to do with the subject under discussion?  The claims that Jews were communists (Bolsheviks), highly exaggerated anyway (their politics ran the entire gamut), is another old canard, trotted out as the other side of Polish defensiveness. Don’t get me wrong:  I have a great deal of sympathy for Polish anxiety about the historical record; but an honest appraisal will do more to restore honor and integrity, then the immediate cry of ‘slander.’

        polgirl says:

         Actually,  “an honest appraisal” takes into account that almost 40% of the most senior communist apparatus under Stalin was Jewish.  Not just another old canard.  What it has to do with this discussion is that there were Jews who aided and abetted the Soviet occupation of Poland.  This does not indicate that I hold all Jews responsible, unlike the many posters on this site who rabidly hate all Poles because of a relatively few dregs of society.   

          muskablei says:

          Ms.
          Polgirl,

          To extend
          your logic, the polish “patriots” during WWII foresaw the Jewish participation
          in the post-war government. Thus they acted to prevent the return of the decimated
          Jewish residents or even to murder the few whom Nazis missed. According to Menahem
          Begin, General Anders in 1941 was very reluctant to accept Jewish volunteers to
          his units. Furthermore the atmosphere in his army was highly anti-Semitic.

          polgirl says:

           Begin, the one who claimed that “Poles imbibe anti-semitism with their mothers’ milk”.  A very reliable source.  In occupied Poland the Jews were considered very passive.  My father tells of one incident in which the AK raided a German armaments factory staffed with 200 Jewish laborers and  guarded by Ukrainians.  When the guards had been liquidated, the armaments were taken and the mission completed,  none of the  Jewish prisoners  escaped with the AK, although they had the opportunity.  This was not an isolated incident.

          ThorsProvoni says:

          I have heard similar stories from relatives in the AK. I was told that Jews tended to feel unable to “rough” it in the forest or the countryside.

          Begin was just projecting. Jews have been self-indoctrinating themselves with intense anti-goyish prejudice for centuries, and I have studied Jewish education in Poland over the last 400 years.

          EvanStone says:

           They didn’t “escape” because they had no where to escape to!  They had also been working in the worst of condition without hardly anything to eat.
          It’s true, historically, Jews have been VERY passive – thus giving  jollies to those that had such an easy time attacking them.
          The Jewish motto is now “Never Again”, for a reason.  It took a long time for the world to accept the fighting Jew in Israel.
          But for everyone’s information, there were plenty of Jews who fought in WWI & WWII and bravely lost their lives and came home in  severe conditions.

          Bosstone says:

          They could have gone to the forest with the resistance fighters who gave them the chance to escape.  It is a sad irony that many Jews thought they could survive by being compliant to the Germans.

        polgirl says:

         Actually,  “an honest appraisal” takes into account that almost 40% of the most senior communist apparatus under Stalin was Jewish.  Not just another old canard.  What it has to do with this discussion is that there were Jews who aided and abetted the Soviet occupation of Poland.  This does not indicate that I hold all Jews responsible, unlike the many posters on this site who rabidly hate all Poles because of a relatively few dregs of society.   

        polgirl says:

        Sack, as well as Finkelstein, present a perspective on history that does not always conform to the version that most Jews would  find acceptable.  It doesn’t make them unreliable.

          leucippe says:

          polgirl, give it a rest.  If you can trot out Finkelstein as your authority, good luck.  I’m finished replying.

          polgirl says:

          It’s no surprise that Finkelstein is shunned by other Jews. Thank you for no longer replying.

          ThorsProvoni says:

          No genuine or respectable scholar criticizes Finkelstein’s skewering of Jewish-Zionist propagandist pseudo-scholars Dershowitz or Goldhagen.

          Of course, a lot of Jewish pseudo-academics, who obtained professorships via corrupt Jewish social networking rant about Finkelstein, but no rational person whether Jewish or non-Jewish can take such dishonest Jews seriously.

          Bosstone says:

          Finkelstein was right, and Jan Gross is “Exhibit A” in the holocaust industry.  He was a sociologist wallowing in obscurity until he wrote holocaust-themed  books trashing the Poles.

     Thank you.

     Huh? You are actually saying that during WW II them bad poles killed more Jews than Germans?:> Wow… talk about rewriting history..

    ThorsProvoni says:

    The Kielce pogrom seems to have been incited by a collaboration of (Jewish) Soviet secret police and local Zionists. In order to make it harder to unravel the story behind the story, the Soviets seem to have killed their Zionist collaborators while the attacks were taking place.

They should talk to my fathers cousin.  After the war ended, she and some of her family returned to Poland, only to be shot by her kind polish neighbors. The local poles didnt want the returning Jews to reclaim their property . Her family fled thinking that she had died. She didnt die and wound up going to the US.  She still has the dress with bullet holes in it.  Lets not forget the Poles who would tell the Germans who were Jews and where they were hiding. Lets not forget that the Polish resistance did nothing to help the Jewish forces in the Warsaw Rebellion. My father was born in Poland and was lucky to been captured by Soviet forces during the German/Soviet invasion of Poland. He hates Poland with a passion. Never wanted to visit it or ever speak the language. Its no coincidence that of all the lands Germany captured, only Poland had camps.  No other captured lands would have tolerated it

    Bogdan51 says:

    Danny, equally I could say that I hate Jews with the passion because a large chunk of my extended familly was deported to Siberia from Grodno (now Belorussia) after they had been dennounced by their Jewish neighbours.

    Equally the Polish Jew, Helena Wolinska Bruss was a chief attorney and accuser as a communist operative in a post war Poland of a Home Army hero gen Emil Fieldorf who was also one of commanders of Home Army’s branch Zegota that rescued 120000 Polish Jews from the death camps.

    Irena Sendler a nurse and also a member of Zegota has personally rescued 2500 Jewish children and babies.

    And again it was an American Jewish Diaspora that dismissed in the most harsh terms a special report sent by Polis Home Army via couriers Jan Karski and Jan Nowak-Jezioranski about the barbaric treatment the Polish Jews.

    So where was a Jewish diaspora when the European Jews needed them?

    The American Jewish diaspora was as treacherous towards their own during the WW2 as it is today when 78% of the Amrican Jews voted for the degenerate Obama who is also determined to destroy Israel.

    If that happens whom are you going to blame again?

    Yous idiots Polish haters are simply refusing to display a balanced opinion of that tragic time.

polgirl says:

It would be delusional to think that the article’s title is rhetorical, but I shall answer the question nonetheless.  Poland was the only occupied country of Europe which did not spawn a collaborationist regime. Indeed, there were low-life, low-level collaborators, but on a much smaller scale than some of the anti-Polish hysteria suggests.  The History Channel recently ran a series called “Nazi Collaborators” which  profiled regimes — besides the usual suspects like Laval in France or Quisling in Norway — in Greece, Holland Finland (and others countries), in addition to the IRA and Mordechai Rumkowski, the Polish Jew who operated the Lodz ghetto.  There was no segment on occupied Poland, for the simple reason that there was no collaborationist regime.  I will also point out that the list of countries from which the Germans successfully recruited thousands of volunteers to the SS — the worst of the war criminals — spans almost the entire alphabet, from Albania to Ukraine.  It includes some  seemingly unlikely places for recruitment (India being just one), and supposedly neutral countries, inter alia, Sweden, Spain, Switerland, as well as occupied countries which Jews apparently  consider sympathetic, such as Holland and Denmark.  This relentless barrage of anti-Polish rhetoric suggests that many of you are engaging in the very   stereotyping and scapegoating of which you accuse others.

    rocky2345 says:

    After WWII started, Poland was divided between the Soviet Union in accordance with the secret Hitler-Stalin pact of August 1939. Poland ceased to function as an independent country. Polish intellectuals were hunted down and murdered by the Germans very early in the war. Polish politicians who could escape set up a government in exile in London. The Polish and French or Danish situations were very different. German occupied Poland was known as the General Government with the governing function split between military and civilian functions. Hans Frank served as Governor General and Heinrich Himmler was in charge of extermination camps. There was no governing role for the Poles. In June 1941, the Germans launched their attack on the Soviet Union and the rest of Poland was soon under German occupation.

    ste88ven says:

    The collaborators did not stand out because they were in the majority

      polgirl says:

      Now you are really grasping at straws.  Collaborators were considered pariahs by the rest of society.  My father was in the resistance and liquidated collaborators.

        No, its you posting LIES. Poles were very happy in helping Germans in their extermination of Jews. 

          JR48 says:

          You’re out of your gourd.

          Bogdan51 says:

          Riddick-ulous Riddick. Your blatant insanity doesn’t even deserve a rant in response. It deserves a laughter, belch and a fart…

          Uh-huh, it must be nice being able to read everyone’s intentions. I do lack the ability however; could you tell me yours?

          polgirl says:

          You are proving one of my earlier points:  you yourself are engaging in scapegoating and stereotyping.

          alezwasidioci says:

           no they were not. do you know anyone from poland to make such terrible and hurting statements?

       Now, how do you know this? I am serious. Sources please.

Gabe Goritz says:

Poland’s geographic location and Jewish population made it ideal for the camps. The gaffe is a gaffe but also a bad one for someone of his intelligence. The opportunity that gave rise to it and now the dialog over it expresses the obvious: as was previously, as it is now, Poland and its people Jew and non-Jew are carelessly considered. We are not talking GW here, this president was a professor not baseball team owner.

    rocky2345 says:

     A professor of law not of Eastern European history. I wonder how carefully the State Department reviewed the speech.

    ste88ven says:

    It is not a gaffe…..They WERE Polish concentration camps.  There were also German concentration camps in Germany.

      oaklandj says:

      Is that Hyundai Korean because it was made in Korea, or American because it’s currently in the US and driven here?

rocky2345 says:

 Warsaw had around 400,000 Jews in 1939 before the war started. Denmark had about 8,000.

It’s wild what libs will do and say to cover for Obama

    That is not at all what this article and discussion are about.  Please take your liberal-bashing elsewhere.

      Take your national socialism back to the your motherland

        Only when you get your grammar right.

        stannadel says:

         Only fools and knaves think that National Socialism had anything to do with socialism or the left–it was a far right phenomenon where Capn would have fit right in as long as nobody suspected he was Jewish.

          Only fools and knaves think that National Socialism nazi style is NOT the result of fools with faith that any kind can ever actually successfully exist.

          I suggest you read the pamphlet by Goebbels called “Why we are Socialists” and don’t repeat the stupid things any more. They flag was red, their party was “Workers Socialist”, the had state control of the economy, 4 years economic plans, etc. The full set. The only thing that made them different from Stalin was their Nationalist (as opposed to Stalin’s Internationalist) paranoia. 
          And I lough when Socialists call other Socialists “fake”. That’s what Reds always do. Chinese commies even fought a war with Vietnamese ones

          I suggest you learn all about a political movement from only the members without any outside analysis.  How many socialists across Eastern Europe talked about recreating the Roman Empire or expanding the Aryan race into Russia?

          stannadel says:

           No Ivan, your history is really terrible.  The Nazis weren’t just opposed to Stalinists, they opposed and murdered all sorts of socialists and social democrats, they were the self declared enemies of Marxism.  There was a semi-socialist faction of the Nazi party led by Strasser, but they were purged and Strasser and the other leaders were killed on Hitler’s and Himmler’s orders.  The Nazis mobilized the economy for war, but so did the democracies–that kind of state control of the economy has nothing to do with Socialism.  They never questioned the fundamentally capitalist economy of Germany and were supported by most of the big industrialists and bankers.  The word Socialist in the name was never accurate, they used it to attract support from workers when most workers supported the Socialist party.  And this is just picked up by right wingers nowadays to try and distance themselves from their fellow right wingers known as Nazis.  But the brown stain sticks on them just as the red stain of Stalinism sticks on the left.

          stannadel says:

           No Ivan, your history is really terrible.  The Nazis weren’t just opposed to Stalinists, they opposed and murdered all sorts of socialists and social democrats, they were the self declared enemies of Marxism.  There was a semi-socialist faction of the Nazi party led by Strasser, but they were purged and Strasser and the other leaders were killed on Hitler’s and Himmler’s orders.  The Nazis mobilized the economy for war, but so did the democracies–that kind of state control of the economy has nothing to do with Socialism.  They never questioned the fundamentally capitalist economy of Germany and were supported by most of the big industrialists and bankers.  The word Socialist in the name was never accurate, they used it to attract support from workers when most workers supported the Socialist party.  And this is just picked up by right wingers nowadays to try and distance themselves from their fellow right wingers known as Nazis.  But the brown stain sticks on them just as the red stain of Stalinism sticks on the left.

      Member of Communist Party for long? 

This article is ridiculous and pretty obvious shilling for the President.  I half-expected Jan to bust out a Chuck Norris like quip at the end:  Obama…even when he gaffes, he corrects history.

I think to Jan, Barack Obama is the most interesting man in the world and even more odd is that she ends up refuting her own arguments at the ends of article.

EvanStone says:

In the late 1890’s, when my grandfather lived in Poland as a child, a Pole put out his lit cigarette in my grandfather’s cheek.  My grandfather came to the U.S. when he was 13 & was ashamed to tell anyone he was from Poland.  Every time he looked in a mirror he cursed the Poles, they were  notorious for their hated of Jews.  And to this day, in Chicago, the largest Polish population outside of Warsaw, they hold these same sentiments.
Yes, all of Europe has been unfriendly to the Jews over the ages & turned their back on the extermination of a people.  But the U.S. has its fair share, as well. When my grandfather was a young man there were signs on certain beaches in Chicago, “No dogs or Jews allowed”.   There have been crosses burnt on the lawns of many Jews in Indiana, the home of the KKK.

    oaklandj says:

    Yes, sadly, anti-Semitism was the norm, not the exception, just about everywhere at the time. 

      ThorsProvoni says:

      It is important to keep in mind how completely undesirable — even if there were no depression — Jewish immigrants at that time were to any country because of the Jewish record of smuggling (i.e. tax and tariff evasion), kidnapping, sabotage, terrorism, targeted assassination, white-slavery, mass-murder, ethnic cleansing, financial crime, business cheating, anti-goyism, legal fraud (the entire slip and fall industry in the USA), subversion, espionage, communism, etc.

        oaklandj says:

        I guess it was just a matter of time before an actual Nazi weighed in with their thoughts. Now that you’ve provided it, you can return to rock you were under before.

          ThorsProvoni says:

          I am hardly stating a German Nazi opinion. Practically all 19th century non-Jewish and most Jewish intellectuals believed that hostility toward Jews resulted from atrocious Jewish behavior and would dissipate if Jewish behavior changed. 

          German Nazis in general did not care about reforming Jewish behavior, but most Zionists (Jewish Nazis) were part of the consensus that Jewish behavior was in many regards completely unacceptable.

          After the Holocaust honest Jewish studies scholars have generally had to censor themselves, but in the face of outrageous Jewish behavior in Stolen and Occupied Palestine, reopening the discussion of reforming bad Jewish behavior to civilized norms is long overdue.

        EvanStone says:

         For your information, and in view of your dark imagination, the Jewish immigrant at the turn of the 20th century in the U.S. was disliked because they were poor with old world customs from EUROPE!
        But these people, unlike a lot of those who have immigrated to the U.S. today, became very well educated, worked hard to create and build thriving businesses, brought up their families with morals, ethics, love of country and the desire to assimilate into the community that we proudly call the United States.
        As for how the immigrant in Europe was and is treated to this day, is based on religious up bringing.  Everything seems to revolve around the church of that region.  If the immigrant doesn’t fit in with the dictates then they’re treated as outsiders.
        I realize many are brought up demonizing Jews (and others) and can’t seem to get past it.  That will be your legacy.

    polgirl says:

     Yes, and remember the wretched souls on the St. Louis

    polgirl says:

     Yes, and remember the wretched souls on the St. Louis

I recommend this article and I think this could add to the discussion and provide some insight into the complicated Polish attitudes towards the war and the Jews:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/17/arts/poles-and-the-jews-how-deep-the-guilt.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm 

Written by Adam Michnik, a prominent Polish Jew who still lives in Poland.

“Thus we have a singularly Polish paradox: on occupied Polish soil, a person could be an anti-Semite, a hero of the resistance and a savior of Jews.”

    ThorsProvoni says:

    Michnik did not get the complete irony of Poland under German Nazi rule, or he would have added “while a non-Aryan Tatar Jew might serve in the SS.”

    As Jewish ethnic Ashkenazi behavior became more and more atrocious in the later and early 20th century, Jewish Tatar complaints and criticism against ethnic Ashkenazim became almost indistinguishable from that of alleged Christian “anti-Semites.” 

    A few German Nazi leaders seem to have been aware of this conflict and conscripted a number of Tatar Jews into the SS.

    While I was a student at Harvard, I read the complaint of a German Nazi SS officer that one of his Tatar subordinates had a Hebrew Bible.

SpideyTerry says:

There’s no debate about it. Poland did not collaborate with the Nazis – they were conquered and abused by them. If you want to talk about a country that aided and abetted the Nazis, try to the west of Berlin. There’s a reason why France has two colors in textbook maps of WWII Europe – one to mark the conquered area and the other to mark the collaborating area.

This article is ridiculous nonsense – a pathetic attempt to spin things in Obama’s favor after he made a monumental error that even a child would know not to make. And true to “smart power” form, he continues to make worse for himself by not apologizing for it. (Sorry, but having an underling simply say “He misspoke” isn’t an apology; it’s a deflection.) Any decent person would apologize.

    oaklandj says:

    Sad that you’ve made this all-too-common mistake a big partisan issue. Obama misspoke, and then retracted it. He never suggested Poland collaborated with the Nazis. Get over it.

      Andrea says:

      It is also “partisan” to not acknowledge that this was a blunder, a result of ignorance.  

      People expect a US president to know better.  Get over that.

        Yes, it was ignorant, but I really don’t think he meant any harm or insult, especially considering the context – honoring Karski.

        I think positive things will come out of blunder:  for one, it alerted the world to how offensive this phrase is to Poles and what a sensitive issue WWII still is to them; for another, it has sparked debates and examinations of Polish history, which for too long was censored and stifled by the communist regime, like what we’re doing now.

          Andrea says:

          Agreed.  No harm intended.  And he apologized personally.

      Andrea says:

      It is also “partisan” to not acknowledge that this was a blunder, a result of ignorance.  

      People expect a US president to know better.  Get over that.

CrooklynBoy says:

Obama is sooooo edjukated.

Emerson_C says:

The extent to which the post-War incidents were orchestrated by the Soviets is an important debate.  The Soviets were desparate to destroy any sympathy for the Poles in their plan to secure Communist control.  Also there has been a sometimes unconscious hatred of Poland and the Poles on the part of the western Left.  It was the Poles who halted and defeated the Red army at the Vistula in 1920 at the beginning of the Communist Era, and it was the Poles who began the earthquake that led to the unravelling of the Left’s beloved Soviet Union.  Enough said. 

marisha57 says:

 In reading through the story and comments again I find it hard to see all the hate that has continued to perpetuate due to distortions and different perspectives due to ones own personal experiences. How horrible to return home to be shot at by one’s neighbors. My family was not Jewish but they too lost their home and much land in this ugly war. Family members died soon after due to disease from years of cold and starvation. Starting over in America, and Africa for some of us, was our new beginning. How horrible to be herded like cattle to Siberia so the dirty deeds of war could be done. To hate in the name of religion has to be one of the oldest and most naive forms of hatred that exists, yet still so damn popular.  My hopes are that as the stories come out people can get a full education and see what hatred does. Fighting for the truth to be told is one way….the other is trusting that due to misspoken words,  like those made by President  Obama, it will open a door to the true nature of that horrible time in history which we need to stop allowing.  Individuals did great things and some , sadly, did heinous things.  Museums need to stop worrying about money and take care that history shares truths to the best of our knowledge. Our leaders need to learn the stories and truths of this and other wars so that we may change how we negotiate with other cultures. We still have living people who have stories that tell of personal experiences and can shine a light 0n the sickness of the war. People make history not countries. Politicians may be in the books and the military may have their pages as well…..but people, Jews, Catholics, Pagans, Muslims…well we decide to hate or love one another. The truth can not be hidden, only denied. Money made from the blood spilled and lives lost needs to be used for peace and peace alone. I am still learning myself but one thing I do know is that part of this story runs through my veins. I am connected and I know a truth that speaks of Polish heroes who fought to Free their country of the hell that invaded it. Those who served, like my grandfather, did so for ALL  religions. Peace!

NBARef Watch says:

See also Simon Wiesenthal’s The Sunflower

genelevit says:

It is true: Poles did not collaborate with Nazis. But not because they did not want to. If Nazis would give them such option – who knows how they would act.
On another hand, Jews shouldn’t blame Poles (or Russians, Ukrainians, etc) for their mistreatment. It is not Poles’ fault that Jews pock their noses in other peoples’ affairs. If Jews want to “repair” (“heal”) the world (tikkun olam) (establish capitalism, communism, anarchism, banking system, same sex marriage, “universal” justice, total equality or whatever) they should take full responsibility for the consequences of their actions and don’t blame others.     

alezwasidioci says:

O. MY.GOD! Im polish and you americans have no idea how your comments made me sad. WE were building the death camps??? WE hate jews?? go and read something about second world war history because you have no idea what you are talking about. The germans  build the death camps and tortured poles and jews. This is such a terrible insult i never heard.

    Andrea says:

    Understand your anger.  I know a Pole, very old now, who risked her life to help smuggle Jews out of Poland.  She lost most of her family members and properties.

    She still has a very strong sense of right vs. wrong.  Simplistic people will, no doubt, deride her beliefs as “black and white” and “simplistic”. 

    In all her years in the US, she never lost that sense of right vs. wrong.  Again, simplistic thinkers will say she is clinging to her beliefs out of fear or ignorance.  And, again, they will be wrong. Her beliefs were tested under the most dire of circumstances and found to be worthy.

    Andrea says:

    Understand your anger.  I know a Pole, very old now, who risked her life to help smuggle Jews out of Poland.  She lost most of her family members and properties.

    She still has a very strong sense of right vs. wrong.  Simplistic people will, no doubt, deride her beliefs as “black and white” and “simplistic”. 

    In all her years in the US, she never lost that sense of right vs. wrong.  Again, simplistic thinkers will say she is clinging to her beliefs out of fear or ignorance.  And, again, they will be wrong. Her beliefs were tested under the most dire of circumstances and found to be worthy.

Thank you for this balanced and true to the facts article. 
There are many of us in Poland who regard the tragedy of our Jewish fellow citizens as a severe blow dealt to our nation.

Depressingly, as I’ve read about this, I’ve discovered there was a lot of Jewish collaboration with Communists in many European countries. There were practical reasons–Commies vs Nazis might seem like equivalent evils to many people, but if you were Jewish only one would kill you for sure. Also, if you were the Russians, Jews were less likely to be loyal to the local population.

A lot of them probably believed in the Socialist New Man they were making, but then, a lot of Germans probably believed in their New Order too.

It actually makes me more of a Zionist–only with your own country do you not have to play these disgusting games of deciding which bunch of overlords you’re going to throw in with. Still, I don’t think Israel has a very bright future…

genelevit says:

Those Poles who blame Jews for collaborating with Soviets conveniently forgot that first chief of KGB was Pole Dzerzhisky. And the second chief of KGB was also a Pole: Mezhisky. The main Stalin’s prosecutor-inquisitor Vyshinsky was also a Pole. And Bierut was also a Pole And so on, talking about collaboration.   

    polgirl says:

    A highly disproportionate number of Stalin’s henchmen were Jewish, some of the most notorious being Genrikh Yagoda, Leonid Reichman, Kaganovich, Beria… who collectively have on their hands the blood of tens of millions.

      ThorsProvoni says:

      I always find it interesting that so many of the non-Jewish Soviet henchmen were married to Jewish women. 

      When we were trying at Harvard to understand Yiddish culture and its relationship to revolutionary radicalism, we hypothesis that as a secondary effect of the fonya and modernization as well as the greater ease with which women learn new languages, Yiddish women tended to interact more with the non-Jewish world than Yiddish men.* (Among other things there was much more intermarriage of Jewish women with non-Jews than of Jewish men with non-Jews in the 19th and early 20th century).In general Yiddish men were viewed as effeminate while Yiddish women had dominating tendencies. Thus Yiddish women were disproportionately involved in radical movements, in terror attacks, and in targeted assassination.
      Outside of Czarist regions, we don’t see quite the same level of Jewish female radicalism and murderousness (except in Palestine). Yet relatively speaking Central European, British, and N. American Jewish women were disproportionately politically active while Jewish men at least in Germany often focused on the Umvolkungsbewegung (Regenderization Movement — an early form of Gay politics).* Note there appear to be much earlier references to the effeminacy of Jewish males among the writings of members of the Szlachta (Polish gentry). I have hypothesized that as the Jewish community became wealthier and more powerful in Commonwealth Poland, Jewish men acted more and more effeminately so that the Szlachta would treat them as harmless and non-threatening.

        You Sir are repeating old pseudoscientific discussions about the effeminate nature of Jewish males . There were even theories that Jewish men were menstruating. Of course living as a minority with no means to defend oneselve would make such cretinous tales possible. That this kinf of mental debris is occupying Your thoght processes makes me wander in what capacity You spent time at Harvard .  

      Beria was a jew as I am chinese . Some henchmen were jewish up until the trials in 1937 ,then almost all jews with any stature in the party , Kamenev , Zinoviev , Radek , Trotskij and later f.e Slanskij were murdered on Stalins orders .Litvinov was kicked out in the preparations for the Molotov -Ribbentrop pact . Kaganovitch was the exception.  My granfather who was not even in the party but was a renowned scientist wa arrested in 1937 and shot in the cellar of NKVD in Leningrad. so much for the privileged Jews in communist Russia.

    polgirl says:

    A highly disproportionate number of Stalin’s henchmen were Jewish, some of the most notorious being Genrikh Yagoda, Leonid Reichman, Kaganovich, Beria… who collectively have on their hands the blood of tens of millions.

    ThorsProvoni says:

    Feliks Dzierżyński was very much a lackey of Jewish radical politics. He was affianced to Julia Goldman and close to Rosa Luxemburg and Leo Jogiches. He can be analogized to the non-Jewish hangers-on of Neo-Con Zionist politics today.

 Few facts:

1. Jews came to Poland a hundreds years before WWI, cause European antisemitism (Spain for instance, Wolter in France, or Shakespeare in London) and religion wars of course.

2. There was strong antisemitism in Poland before WWII based not only on economic fight about domination. (Jews dominated trades and Poles was landlord). It is shame but if you check Dreyfuss Affair, Mussolini times you will see that all Europe was antisemitism those years.

3. During WWII there was 3 millions Jews in Poland so for Germans the easiest (and cheapest – remember it was during costly war) way to make final solution was building camps in Poland. On the race hierarchy there was Germans on top, then French&English, then East European nations and last were Jews and Gypsies. So the German idea was to build camps where Poles slaves would be watchdog of Jews slaves. Anybody who has read Auschwitz literature know what I mean (so called “kapo” function).

4. Only in Poland there was a death penalty on helping Jews and Polish underground army sentenced to death Poles who sell Jews to Germans.

5. In cities and towns there was marginal Poles who earned money selling Jews to Germans. The rest was afraid about their own lives.

6. In rural area the scale was much higher. The newest research shows it was much common and it probably will be shock for Poles when they read about it (Gross poor works is only beginning).

7. At the beginning of war it was Schadenfreunde from lots of Poles when they saw first Naazi order with Jews. After a few years in occupation there was only compassion but not help.

8. Lot of Jews (remember it was poor Askenazi Jews) were interesting in communism before, during and after war. According to official polish research it was about 30% of Jews in polish secret service with only a few percentage of Jews who lived in Poland after war.

9. Poles living now on Poland are not strong antisemitic (apart from really marginal neonazis and old radical right-wings) and there were lot of admire for last commander of Uprising in Jewish Warsaw Ghetto (Marek Edelman).

10. Poland is much filosemitic country now with Poles who unfortunately are islamofobic and support Jews in fighting with Musilm world.

@genlewit:disqus  – “It is true: Poles did not collaborate with Nazis. But not because they
did not want to. If Nazis would give them such option – who knows how
they would act.”  –

Yes, Nazi gave such option. There were diplomacy talking between two sides.

This picture is not a fake

 http://pl.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Plik:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-B0527-0001-293,_Warschau,_Empfang_Goebbels_bei_Marschall_Pilsudski.jpg&
filetimestamp=20090929162440

Some of polish historicans said if Poles would make official collaboration, there paradoxically were less Jews murders in Poland. Because polish ‘no” for Holocaust would be then official statement of friend. Not enemy.  

    Bosstone says:

    Indeed, in the 1930s the Germans pursued an alliance with Poland against the USSR, and Poland refused.  This was one more reason for the fury Hitler unleashed on Poland on Sept. 1, 1939.

muskablei says:

To the writer,

Please don’t
be so politically correct.

Also, Tuvia
Bielski and his brothers were Belarusian Jews, not polish. Western Belarus was
held until Soviet invasion of 1939 by Poland.

    If that land was held by Poland, then the Bielski brothers were Polish citizens so you could technically classify them as Polish Jews, no?  Bielski certainly sounds like a Polish name, and both the Polish and English wikipedias, for what it’s worth, identify them as Polish and state that Tuvia was a corporal in the Polish army.

    If that land was held by Poland, then the Bielski brothers were Polish citizens so you could technically classify them as Polish Jews, no?  Bielski certainly sounds like a Polish name, and both the Polish and English wikipedias, for what it’s worth, identify them as Polish and state that Tuvia was a corporal in the Polish army.

muskablei says:

To the writer,

Please don’t
be so politically correct.

Also, Tuvia
Bielski and his brothers were Belarusian Jews, not polish. Western Belarus was
held until Soviet invasion of 1939 by Poland.

Evelina

Granted that the shifting national and ethnic boundaries and migration in Europe can confuse the issue of who was responsible for what.

But the antisemitism in Poland is not equivalent to racism in the US. I was in Poland for a long work trip last summer and there were swastikas all over. Not just in the countryside but in Warsaw and Krakow. Professionally dressed people would stand near or walk by swastikas, other antisemitic and anti-homosexual graffiti and signs without blinking.

If there was hateful racist graffiti or signs in my city (US) it would cause an uproar. About 10 years ago, one swastika graffiti appeared in a town in my area and it made the state newspapers for days. If I saw hateful graffiti of any nature in my area, I and other people would be calling the city officials everyday and if the city didn’t deal with it promptly I or other people would spray paint over the graffiti or take down the the signs. 

Last summer when I asked Polish people I was in contact with and working with about the antisemitism markings – and these were definitely educated, professional people – they tended to shrug and dismiss it or rationalize why the the bad sentiments towards Jews and gays was justified.

Racism has been atrocious in US history and is still a substantial problem today, but we are making real progress.  Given the state of antisemitism in Poland today, I shudder to think what it was like in the last century or before.

    In my post I was talking about past anti-Semitism in Poland, because your posts were talking about pogroms in past centuries, not about swastikas today.  I can’t comment on anti-Semitism in Poland TODAY, because I haven’t been to Poland in over a decade and my own historical work and research hasn’t focused on that.  But in the context of 1,000 years of Polish history, my statements hold water.

    In my post I was talking about past anti-Semitism in Poland, because your posts were talking about pogroms in past centuries, not about swastikas today.  I can’t comment on anti-Semitism in Poland TODAY, because I haven’t been to Poland in over a decade and my own historical work and research hasn’t focused on that.  But in the context of 1,000 years of Polish history, my statements hold water.

    Yes, there would be normally, usually be an uproar over racist graffiti in the U.S. because we (Americans) are a society of outward political correctness and trying to not offend any specific group with words.  But what about actions?  You’re not listing things like, for example, a higher proportion of false criminal accusations and wrongful convictions and executions – which still happens to black Americans today.

    I think there is a cultural difference here – perhaps Poles just like to verbally complain a lot and they don’t pay attention to political correctness, and maybe they’re not offended by insensitive or racist graffiti because they just don’t take it seriously.  In the U.S., I think more people would freak out over a spray-painted racial slur than over someone being attacked or personally discriminated against for being a minority – and maybe the opposite is true in Poland (I don’t know this for a fact, I’m just giving Poles the benefit of the doubt).

      And actually, there are numerous examples of Polish people who published some very anti-Semitic writings before WWII but later dedicated, and in some cases sacrificed, theirs lives to help save Jews under Nazi occupation (for example Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, Father Maximilian Kolbe).  So, in Poland, it’s normal for someone who spews verbal hatred for a group of people to still regard them with human decency and compassion if their lives are in danger.

      How many outwardly racist Americans ever saved blacks from lynching mobs?

        Geocars says:

        Please can you tell me exactly what verbal or written hatred was spewed by Fr. Maximilian Kolbe?  Something concrete please, not just a generalisation.  Thank you.

          I did not mean any “character assassination” against Fr. Kolbe. There is a reason for why he is a martyr and a saint in the Catholic Church and I agree with it. If you read my post more carefully, you’ll notice that I included him in the group of people who “later dedicated, and in some cases sacrificed, theirs lives to help save Jews under Nazi occupation”. And I didn’t attribute any “verbal or written hatred” to him as you say – I said he “published some very anti-Semitic writings”. I didn’t say it was “hatred” per se, I wanted to imply something more like discrimination. If you have access to university-level research databases, you can find his writings in Polish Catholic press of the interwar period.

      And actually, there are numerous examples of Polish people who published some very anti-Semitic writings before WWII but later dedicated, and in some cases sacrificed, theirs lives to help save Jews under Nazi occupation (for example Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, Father Maximilian Kolbe).  So, in Poland, it’s normal for someone who spews verbal hatred for a group of people to still regard them with human decency and compassion if their lives are in danger.

      How many outwardly racist Americans ever saved blacks from lynching mobs?

      Also, Americans are just super hyper-sensitive to swastikas.  I’d bet that the media and community reactions you’re describing would be different if instead of a swastika someone just wrote “dirty Jews get out” or smashed a window in a synagogue or Jewish-owned business.

    Yes, there would be normally, usually be an uproar over racist graffiti in the U.S. because we (Americans) are a society of outward political correctness and trying to not offend any specific group with words.  But what about actions?  You’re not listing things like, for example, a higher proportion of false criminal accusations and wrongful convictions and executions – which still happens to black Americans today.

    I think there is a cultural difference here – perhaps Poles just like to verbally complain a lot and they don’t pay attention to political correctness, and maybe they’re not offended by insensitive or racist graffiti because they just don’t take it seriously.  In the U.S., I think more people would freak out over a spray-painted racial slur than over someone being attacked or personally discriminated against for being a minority – and maybe the opposite is true in Poland (I don’t know this for a fact, I’m just giving Poles the benefit of the doubt).

Evelina

Granted that the shifting national and ethnic boundaries and migration in Europe can confuse the issue of who was responsible for what.

But the antisemitism in Poland is not equivalent to racism in the US. I was in Poland for a long work trip last summer and there were swastikas all over. Not just in the countryside but in Warsaw and Krakow. Professionally dressed people would stand near or walk by swastikas, other antisemitic and anti-homosexual graffiti and signs without blinking.

If there was hateful racist graffiti or signs in my city (US) it would cause an uproar. About 10 years ago, one swastika graffiti appeared in a town in my area and it made the state newspapers for days. If I saw hateful graffiti of any nature in my area, I and other people would be calling the city officials everyday and if the city didn’t deal with it promptly I or other people would spray paint over the graffiti or take down the the signs. 

Last summer when I asked Polish people I was in contact with and working with about the antisemitism markings – and these were definitely educated, professional people – they tended to shrug and dismiss it or rationalize why the the bad sentiments towards Jews and gays was justified.

Racism has been atrocious in US history and is still a substantial problem today, but we are making real progress.  Given the state of antisemitism in Poland today, I shudder to think what it was like in the last century or before.

ThorsProvoni says:

The title of this article is bad.

It should have been entitled “Collaborators or Victims of German Nazis” because some of the Polish political groups that split off from the Endeks because it was not radical enough could legitimately be said to have created a form of Polish Nazism while Zionists without doubt and unequivocally must be considered Jewish Nazis at least as vile and extreme as German Nazis.

Why Zionism is Jewish Nazism

The fundamental ideological components shared by Zionism and German Nazism are: politicized ethnic fundamentalism (or ethnic monism), extremist organic nationalism, social Darwinism, biological determinism, essentialism, primordialism, perverted eugenic theory, opposition to race mixing for causing ethnic degeneration, and the corresponding belief in national revival through racial purity. Jews (even many self-avowed Jewish anti-Zionists) often become indignant, claim Jews could not possibly be Nazis, and fling accusations of anti-Semitism when anyone points out that German Nazism and Zionism are for all intents and purposes practically identical when the obvious substitutions are made. To believe that Jews of all ethnic groups could not possibly be Nazis or develop their own form of Nazi ideology is simply an assertion of Jewish racial or ethnic supremacism in association with the idea of Jewish ethical or spiritual superiority.

    Michael Shapiro says:

    I assume that the moderator removed this poster’s earlier posts.  Please remove this Anti-Semitic rant.

      ThorsProvoni says:

      In a lecture at Hebrew University several decades ago the eminent scholar George Mosse made more or less the same points that I published a few hours ago.

      Racist prejudiced Jews like Michael Shapiro cannot tolerate the facts.

Some years ago, I was
taking an independent study course on the Holocaust at the University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee.  A local businessman, who was a Holocaust survivor,
addressed our class, sharing his experience during the war. His name was Walter
Peltz. Walter was born to a Jewish family in Poland and survived Dauchau and Auschwitz.
However, he lost his entire family. 

 

On the issue of
Polish-Jewish relations, he shared that he had recently attended a panel
discussion on this issue in which a professor of Polish studies attempted to
minimize Polish Christian complicity in the persecution of Jews during the war.
Walter countered the professor’s statement, saying many Poles indeed were
complicit in actions against Jews. Walter said in response to his comments, the
professor, who apparently was seat nearby, leaned over and called him a
“dirty Jew.” 

 

The students were horrified
and wanted to know the name of this individual, but Walter wouldn’t do so,
telling the class that he only shared this incident to illustrate that many
Poles still harbor deep-seated antisemitism after all these years following
WWII. 

Some years ago, I was taking an independent study course on
the Holocaust at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee.  A local businessman, who was a Holocaust
survivor, addressed our class, sharing his experience during the war. His name
was Walter Peltz. Walter was born to a Jewish family in Poland
and survived Dauchau and Auschwitz. However, he lost his
entire family.

 

On the issue of Polish-Jewish relations, he shared that he
had recently attended a panel discussion on this issue in which a professor of
Polish studies attempted to minimize Polish Christian complicity in the
persecution of Jews during the war. Walter countered the professor’s statement,
saying many Poles indeed were complicit in actions against Jews. Walter said in
response to his comments, the professor, who apparently was seat nearby, leaned
over and called him a “dirty Jew.”

 

The students were horrified and wanted to know the name of
this individual, but Walter wouldn’t do so, telling the class that he only
shared this incident to illustrate that many Poles still harbor deep-seated
antisemitism after all these years following WWII.

    ThorsProvoni says:

    It is quite understandable that many ethnic Poles like many Palestinians are hostile to Jews.

    Just consider that Zionism ab initio assumed that Jews should have the right to plunder and to kill non-Jews with impunity.

    Disgusting, no?

    Yet one must keep in mind that such Zionist assumptions are only a slight extension of traditional Jewish business practices that were highly exploitative and highly extractive. 

    In general throughout Europe Jews allied themselves with the most exploitative and extractive gentile elites. Polish ethnic Ashkenazim were particularly angry throughout the 19th century because not only had their traditional allies in the Polish Szlachta (Gentry) been humbled by the Germans, Austrians, and Russian, but the Polish Szlachta had begun to show compassion and solidarity with the Polish peasants, who had been traditional targets of Jewish exploitation.

    The Polish Szlachta was generally unaware of this increasing anti-Polish hostility among Jews, which has the quality of unrequited love that turns in unrelenting hate. Polish literature of the 19th century is in fact intensely philosemitic even though Jewish anti-Polish (especially anti-Polish peasant) behavior becomes ever more atrocious — Jews are lucky that few Polish writers come from Polish peasant background — to the point where we should probably talk about Jewish group sociopathy, of which today Palestinians are miserable victims.

      What Zionist leaders claimed the right of Jews to plunder others with immpunity ? Jabotinski supposedly a Jewish supernationalist envisioned a Jewish state in which all minorities were equal to the majority in citizenship status, were the prime minister could be Arab while the president was Jewish which sounds as something along the line of consociational democracy or close to the model existing in Lebanon before the balance of populations was disturbed for reasons to complicated to clarify here.And that was Jabotinsky
        Mr Thorsprovonis statements should of course not be removed by the moderator . These statements should rather stand as examples of “delusional anti-semitism” were the wrongdoing of Jews real or perceived is limitless and utterly diabolical in character. this kind of psychopathology cannot never be refuted . One can as a Jew only see to it that one is not defenseless in the face of such hatred .  

    melanie77 says:

    Jews sided with the communists and attacked the polish people, that’s fact, the Jewish narrative is a big lie technique

Bondicca stop it! “historical revisionsm”! Stop lying! From 1000 AD until the very early 1600s the Jews who emigrated from Germany, or more precisely the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, from the “Russian Lands” via Ukraine’s Kiev, Lviv (Lwow, German Lemberg), from Odessa and Asia, were a self-governing group of communities in Poland under their own, Rabbinical dominated structure, coming to each Election Diet for the Poland crown with a delegation to negotiate a new Charter. Like in every country in Europe, there was a State Church and a landed, military nobility that ran the country with a King. Jews in Poland, like non-members of the State Churches in nearly every European country were excluded from these ruling institutions. It has been said repeatedly in Jewish historical accounts (I am Jewish and received awards from Jewish schools for my scholarship in my youth so don’t tell me what Heinrich Graetz, Cecil Roth, Ludwig Geiger, Max Margolis, etc. wrote in English or German Jewish histories) that this was “discrimination” while actual records and part of Selma Stern-Traeubler’s of Jacob Jacobson’s or others studies in original documents show this in “German” lands and Poland with also because the Rabbinate, and I mean the Orthodox Rabbinate even before the Reform Movement started about 1803 in Berlin, wanted Jews segregated to protect the not just the “purity” of the Jewish Faith but their control of the Jewish Community, as witnessed by the famous, constantly retold story supposedly of Gerson von Bleichroeder, the first observant Jew to be ennobled in Prussia, getting tongue lashed by a Rabbi for reading a book in GERMAN! which meant non religious material with Rabbinical approval! (and people wonder why two of his three sons converted!) But to get back to Poland, about 1650s, maybe a a decade or so before, the Russians replaced the Turks as the biggest military danger to Poland alongside Sweden. While Turks did not presecute Jews (or permit them to be in Government as Pashas, Beys, or Viziers without conversion, a fact always overlooked in accounts of the “Golden Age of Spanish Jewry in Turkey a la the Duke of Naxos) the Swedens excluded Jews from their country as did the Russians (and the French and English at this time, too, which is always conveniently ignored). So in 1600 Jews were living peacefully in Poland and most of Germany BUT NOT IN PRUSSIA, RUSSIA, or SWEDEN! I hope intelligent people can see where we are going. What happened in Poland was that the RUSSIAN religious-based hatred of the Jews, which is why until the Partitiions of Poland by Austria, Prussia, and Russia by three countries that BANNED or EXPELLED or LIMITED JEWISH SETTLEMENT changed the situation for the Jews in Poland, and gradually the rare incidents we can call “progroms” turned into an insitutionalized FOREIGN CREATED “Polish anti-Semitism”. It is one of those terrrible facts that on one wants to discuss that the countries that killed, looted, and robbed Jews then expelled them did not just include Spain and Portugal before the “Enlightenment” but ALSO ENGLAND and FRANCE for centuries, and “deeply anti-Semitic” GERMANY and POLAND were the “refuges” for Jewry from about 1000 AD to 1600 (with exceptions for specific parts of Germany and a limited amount of small progoms in Poland but no massacres like in Germany in 1049, 1349, and the Fettmilch Expulsion circa 1613 from Frankfurt am Main). “Revisionism” is changing history from what the actual, documented history was. And let’s me plain, if you read Jewish history BEFORE 1910 it is DIFFERENT from the garbage that has come out since because as you come to the 1930s you start getting leftwing, socialist, and communist Jews attacking capitalism, who as part of that attack what was the Jewish lay leadership of Judaism, too. As a result not only are the “political structures” and “social structures” of those countries that only became “socialist” under Russian military rule after World War II pilloried, but the entire history under, misusing an historical term, “feudal regimes” but the statement, Poles get their anti-Semitism from their mothers’ milk” created. And, yes, conveniently Jews forget that l). 2 of the 3 of Stalin’s butchers in Poland were Jewish: Hilary Minc and Jacob Berman 2). of the 12 highest officers of the Stalinist Secret Police headed by Jacob Berman, 9 were Jews with Jewish names “changed” to Polish names to conceal their Polish Jewish and Russian Jewish births, and 3). it was in the height of  the “Jewish role” in Polish Communist politics that the Polish Army’s Special Forces and Secret Police rounded up the Greek Catholics in Eastern Poland, and literally (like the Jewish Communists that dominated the process in Russian Ukraine a generation before and the Kulak Deportations) deported the Polish Ukrainians either to near death or death in Russia or split up families and shot Priests in 1947-1952. To this day in Nathan Ausbel’s Pictorial History of the Jewish People many Jews get as bar mitzah gifts you see the protraits of Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Berman, and Minc, not to mention Ana Pauker of Romania, mass murders all, JEWISH mass murders, and the text, the last time I saw praises them! You mention Jacob Berman or Hilary Minc’s name in the Chelsea Reform Democratic Club in the Penn South Houses in Manhattan and people to this day at “Yiddishkeit” meetings praised the murdering bastard! So, let’s not hear this third rate socialist crap from grandchildren of emigrants who never met a Pole or read a Polish newspaper or Polish government document. I am Jewish and I mention I lost three greatuncles at Auschwitz, everyone assumes they were Jewish, no, my Jewish greatuncle from Chemnitz (I laid his stolperstein there myself) died in Auschwitz, but the two other greatuncles I lost were Polish Roman Catholics from a family that descends from the 7th archbishop of Gniezno (Primate of Poland) in the late 11th century and in all that history never had one member hector Jews or preach against them or exclude them from the family’s estates. If American Jews in the Chelsea Reform Democratic Club, the Jewish Studies Program at NYU or in books published by the Knopf Division of Random House (owned by the Russian Jewish Newhouse family that were our neighbors in the 1940s before they became such pretensious fools) want to play at being Parlour Pinks either at Penn South Mutual Houses or multimillion dollar coops on Central Park West, be my guest, just don’t think your shit doesn’t stink like all lies!.

Sprite1_1 says:

A few reflections for the commenters here:

1) This website is Tablet, a Jewish cultural and news site. If you are not Jewish, and do not have Jews in your family, why are you here?

To see if you can get away with anti-Semitic statements? To make accusations? To let loose your paranoia and spread lies?  Do you get your jollies baiting people?

Why are you here?

2) My grandmother was a Jewish Pole, in the same way I am a Jewish American, my neighbor across the street is a Catholic American, and the family down the block are Protestant Americans – we were all born in our respective countries and follow our respective religions.

But in the Poland of my grandmother’s youth, she was “a Jew”, and not Polish. Why? Because the non-Jewish Poles never accepted the Jews as Poles, nor as equal citizens. Her non-Jewish neighbors were “Poles”, but the Jewish ones were never considered so, not even when their families had lived in Poland for hundreds of years.

As a teenager, I saw some of my friends go on roots-finding vacations to Italy, Ireland and China. So I wondered what Poland, the land of my ancestors, was like and asked my grandmother if she’d like to go back for a visit. Her answer was basically, “not in a million years…”.

    ThorsProvoni says:

    When I was taking Jewish studies courses at Harvard, a group of us undergraduates realized that there were four basic principles that we had to apply to evaluate the truth of Jewish historiography about Jewish communities. 1. Everything almost invariably takes place later than claimed. The best example is the collapse of second Temple Judaism into many separate currents. From these “Judaisms,” Constantinian Christianity crystallizes first, then Islam, and the last is Medieval Judaism, which crystallizes in the tenth century CE and later develops into Modern Judaism. In other words modern Judaism is the younger sister of Christianity and Islam.  2. From the sixteenth century onward important historical events almost invariably take place first in Poland at least from the standpoint point of Judaism but often in general.
     
    Commonwealth Poland became the first modern failed state in the seventeenth century.
     
    A more recent example is the Auschwitz convent controversy, which proved to be the model for all later attempts of the organized American Jewish community to control discourse about the Holocaust and genocide in general with an attempt to prevent the construction of a convent at Auschwitz as part of the memorialization of martyred Poles. The resulting increase in Judeophobic feeling among ethnic Poles was predictable as was the transformation of Radio Maria into an important Jew-hostile phenomenon of Polish Catholicism.
     
    Needless to say, the organized Jewish community has tried to use the Polish reaction to American Jewish arrogance, bigotry and prejudice as proof that anti-Semitism is an integral component of Polish identity and the gentile psyche in general. Similar subsequent behavior of the organized American Jewish community throughout Europe and the USA has almost invariably led to an increase in hostility to Jews wherever the organized Jewish community has cracked the whip on non-Jewish communities.
    3. “Many the lie that Jews live by.” Now that we have more information from Eastern Europe and Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union, and we better understand the role of ethnic Ashkenazim in overthrowing Czarist Russia, consolidating the Soviet Union, Soviet ethnic cleansing, Soviet mass murder and Soviet genocide, Jewish powerlessness must be considered a myth in Central and Eastern Europe. In point of fact, greater education and more liquid assets made it possible for Eastern European ethnic Ashkenazim to do a lot of damage to many countries.
     
    4. Jewish perception of the amount of historical Jewish suffering doubles roughly every century. Careful analysis of the data indicates that approximately 10,000 Jews died as collateral damage during the Chmielnicki rebellion. By the end of the seventeenth century, the number was 20,000. By the end of the eighteenth century, the number was 40,000. By the end of the nineteenth century the number was 80,000. And by the end of the twentieth century, the number was 160,000. Nowadays Poles and Ukrainians are often described as combining forces to attack Jews.Generalizations like the above are always subject to criticism and need to be applied judiciously unlike the common practice ethnic Ashkenazi Americans to generalize shamelessly about goyim (non-Jews), about Germans, about Russians, about Poles, about Arabs, and about Muslims. At least, I generally try to consult primary Jewish and non-Jewish sources, and when I extrapolate from sociological and demographic studies, I try to apply sound mathematical and scientific principles.So far my research indicates that ethnic Ashkenazi Americans are the major fabricators and purveyors of Islamophobic propaganda (cast in the mold of classic anti-Semitism). Jewish-owned major media corporations and Zionist facilitators in their employ are working hard to spread anti-Islamic incitement throughout the world.

      melanie77 says:

      A basic rule of thumb is all Jewish self serving claims of persecution or achievement can be easily debunked by a 5 minute google search of the relevant facts, Jews invented the big lie technique and utilize it today.

    Geocars says:

    I am here because the President of the United States, the leader of the western world, spoke of Polish concentration camps instead of Nazi concentration camps, and he does not have the backbone to retract or correct his statement. 

    I am here because what the leader of the western world says is reported all over the world. 

    I am here because my father was a volunteer who went off and actually fought against the Nazis and I am interested in anything to do with the Second World War. 

    I am here because I live in a democratic country where I am permitted to decide for myself what my interests are and what I can read, hear and see.  

    I am here because this website is public.  If you wish to exclude Gentiles from seeing how you talk about them, ask the owner/s to make it a private website or blog instead.

1918 Poland was recreated as a sovereign nation . The country  “inherited” a sizeaable Jewish population part of which barely spoke Polish . As in all young states there was an exaggerated stress on nationsustaining (or perceived as such ) caracteristics like language ,religion etc. In the Polish case this was sharpened by the presence of a large neighbour that refused to accept the recrecreation of the Polish state . The classical antisemitism existing in Poland (as in most other states) amalgamated with the fear of a perceived Jewish complicity with the anti national schming of the communists . In reality few Jews were communists but an large proportion of the articulate communists were Jews . Due to processes within the jewish communities of Europe socialism as an alternative to zionism was one of the main responses of the Jewish intellectuals to the antisemitic ,militaristic supernationalisms developing in Europe which made even asssimilation impossible . Most failed to see that a communist movement proclaiming the end of chauvinism would be used to further the imperial ambitions of Soviet Union not to mention the paranoid quest for total power of the Soviet elites . A case in point is the destiny of the communist leadership of prewar that tried to avoid persecution by the protofascist goverment of Smigly -Rydz by escaping to Russia only to immediatly be murdered by Stalin in one of his innumerable fits of bloodthirst.Still up until 1937 and especially during the time of Marshal Pilsudski there exister in Poland parallel to anti-semitism a multicultural society with Jewish parties developing over the whole range of politics from Bund (Jewish workers party) to zionisms to religious etc. Jewish schools were teaching in Polish , Yiddish ,Hebrew . Newspapers ,synagogues and hospitals were created . There was friction which worsened after 1937 with restrioctons to university studies ,discussions about the seating of jewish students etc . Being partly a response to German propaganda these on apartheid bordering acts were a Polish responsibility . From those discriminatory acts to the wholesale extermination of basically the whole jewish population beginning with infants and the elderly there is a giant leap and no invocations of polish antisemitism can shift the guilt for this leap from the Germans to the Poles . The Latvians , Lithuanians , Ukrainians  took  part in this annihilation in a way that makes them accomplices especially as these murderers today often are celebrated asnational heroes in their respectived country while nonone in Poland builds statues to honor szmalciwniki. To diminish the abyss between the complicity of band of polish low-lifes and industrial mass-extemination perpetrated with the full wight of the German state behind it is in itself a form of Holocaust-denial. I am myself a part of the emigration from Poland 1968-1969 ,have experienced Polish antisemitism close by but nevertheless I  am offended and saddened by the ignorant talk of “polish death camps” The German Nazis were masters of deception .Today people go to poland to visit Auschwitz and to Berlin to listen to music . That is perhaps one of the more pervers of the nazi deceptions.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

    ThorsProvoni says:

    While few Jews may have been card carrying communists in inter bellum, common estimates among Jewish and Soviet studies scholars place Polish Jewish sympathy or support for the Soviet Union during the 1920s at between 20-30%. 

    Now one might that this percentage is a minority of Polish Jews but it is an astounding and somewhat scary figure especially after the Polish-Soviet War, because of the continuing Soviet threat, and in view of the role of Jewish Soviet leaders in the abuse of the Soviet Polish minority.

    Polish Jewish support and sympathy for the Soviet Union went up during the 30s even before the death of Józef Piłsudski , even though Piłsudski  was unabashed in his philosemitism, and even though the PPS made great efforts to work with Jewish political parties. 

    While the Jewish minority in Poland might not have behaved as atrociously as the Jewish minority in Latvia, Lithuania, and the Ukraine — something that is hardly clear — Jewish behavior in Poland was definitely problematic, and one must keep in mind that these were not separate minorities but were simply components of one transnational ethnic Ashkenazi population. 

    When we talk about Polish anti-Semitism during this time period, we must keep in mind that Polish Lithuanian Jewish Tatars were often as critical of ethnic Ashkenazi behavior as the “worst” of ethnic Polish alleged anti-Semites. 

    We must also keep in mind that there is no such thing as traditional anti-Semitism. As Lindemann points out implicitly or explicitly in Esau’s Tears, accusations of anti-Semitism are often Jewish anti-goyish propaganda and hostility toward Jews showed different characteristics from region to region, was generally multi-causal, and was hardly without justification.

Bosstone says:

And Guantanamo is a Cuban camp, Hiroshima was obliterated by a Japanese bomb, Pearl Harbor was an American attack, the stranglehold on Leningrad was a Russian seige…

Bosstone says:

And Poles were gratified to see Dzershinsky’s  statue in Moscow tumble, along with communism.  As a whole, Jewish representation in the communist party was highly disproportionate to their population.

Bosstone says:

Most of the guards in the German camps in occupied Poland were Ukrainians or Balts.  And don’t forget the Jewish capos.

Bosstone says:

Because Jews have a need for a common enemy around whom to circle their wagons and keep them cohesive.  If they started to pound on everyone who, throughout the centuries,  ever herded them into ghettos or drove them out completely, or who were “Hitler’s willing executioners” from both Axis and occupied countries, it would be obvious to those uninitiated in historical truth  that THEY are the problem.

Bosstone says:

No, the first victims of Auschwitz were Polish civilians.  The Soviet POWs arrived after Germany’s invasion of the USSR in 1941.

Bosstone says:

Why were Jews so controversial anywhere they lived?

    melanie77 says:

    You are an antisemite for even asking, you know we never discuss Jewish collective behavior that harms their host countries ,only the inevitable citizens prosecution after the fact.

As an american living in Poland, this makes me sick. How can a culture that has faced so much prejudice over the ages be so eager to label Poles in the same manner? Do not forget, it was because of the promise of religious tolerance that Jews resided in Poland in the first place. If you want to talk about re-writing history, let us talk about the 1948 UN mandate that promised a country, not a cage, to the Palestinians,

I’m sick of hearing about the Holocaust, what about the Ukrainian Holocaust, and we all know who was behind that. The Zionists and their ass lickers like Moynihan can bleat all they like, in ‘old Europe’ people know the truth!

Great Article. You are just touching on the tip of the iceberg with it however!!!!

read more here.

http://themilwaukeeandwisconsinnews.blogspot.com/2014/03/what-they-havent-told-you-about_26.html

Great article! However you are just touching on the tip of the iceberg as to what the real issue is! You can read more about it on the link to my website to the left. But I doubt that will get you to my website. It will be clubbed on the head and you will be redirected!

Great article, however you are just touching on the tip of the iceberg as to what the real issue is.

You can read about it in the article on my website, oddly enough the title is about Glaucoma.

You are not going to like this! But those Jews who were killed by their own Polish schoolmates were likely also sexually molested by them. That is where the phrase a Jew has a small penis comes from. People aren’t born with one it comes from vascular damage from sexual molestation. And it is doesn’t necessarily relate to the size of a mans erection. But the point is that every one of their victims of sexual molestation was traumatized and their souls cried out in pain. When that happened the monotheistic had just made their own God to get them through life and school. They had made a connection to that human beings mind! They did so because they themselves were either mentally defective or extremely jealous of what to them was a son of man. After a while they can no longer stand it and want to kill that person. Now this is indeed the nature of monotheism! Jews were not initially monotheists! I can prove that easily. But I just want to say that the propaganda of Adolf Hitler of the Polish emasculating Germans is consistent with those Polish clubbing and killing their own schoolmates after their polytheistic minds had taken them so far in life. Now when I was in High School we had two tattood victims of the holocaust speak to us, and I d@mn well listened. They had nothing good to say about alcohol. And alcohol indeed creates birth defects to the hippo campus that could indeed cause a person to be the equivalent of having the souless mind of satan. The hippo campus is responsible for learning and memory. Those children that cannot learn will abuse the normal ones that can! Those Jews killed by their polish schoolmates were victims of exactly that! As was the Polytheistic preaching Jew Jesus Christ!

http://www.reocities.com/jedwabne/english/jedwabne.htm

Jedwabne
– all english articles in the site

The title of this article is offensive. “Attempts to blur the responsibility for the establishment of concentration and death camps devised and operated by Nazi Germany by putting blame on other nations or ethnic groups” is considered Holocaust Denial.
M. Moynihan, like many, thinks that books by Gross are completely factual and totally objective. Sadly, they are one-sided exaggerations and distortions which caused many controversies. Good for publicity and book sales – Bad for knowledge and understanding.
SENSE OF PROPORTION AND HISTORY
The Germans probably killed more Jews in one hour of any day between 41-45 than HUNDREDS OF YEARS of Polish history.
20,000 Jews were killed in the Kielce ghetto by the German Nazis but the Jewish press is obsessed with the 42 that were killed in a so-called pogrom while Poland was under Soviet Communist OCCUPATION. Likewise, the Jebwane pogrom (300 victims) occurred under a brutal Nazi German occupation. At least 34,000 Jews were killed at Babi Yar in one week in that year. The Germans were assisted by Ukrainians. Look to other countries for Nazi collaboration – Vichy France, Quisling Norway, Arrow Cross Hungary, etc..
You take an ALLEGED quote from Zofia Kossak (honored as Righteous) and then fail to mention that she helped establish ZEGOTA – the only organization that was dedicated to saving Jews. Perhaps you could have mentioned that in all the German Nazi OCCUPIED territories only in Poland was there a mandatory death sentence for any person (ie Pole) AND their family discovered sheltering Jews.As to victims, USHMM is clear: “Between 1939 and 1945, at least 1.5 million Polish citizens were deported to German territory for forced labor. Hundreds of thousands were also imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps. It is estimated that the Germans killed at least 1.9 million non-Jewish Polish civilians during World War II. In addition, the Germans murdered at least 3 million Jewish citizens of Poland.”

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